In this episode, we talk with architect Jeff Sties about his recent home renovation in Charlottesville, Virginia. Jeff, an experienced residential architect, shares what it was like to be both the designer and the homeowner for a project involving the demolition and rebuild of a deteriorating sunroom attached to a 1957 brick rancher. After 25 years in the house, Jeff and his wife decided to make long-needed upgrades, aiming to stay in their home through retirement.
We discuss how living in the home for so long helped Jeff identify what truly needed attention—like hydrostatic pressure issues, a failing porch, and an outdated kitchen. Jeff explains how his architectural experience informed decisions such as adding a pass-through window for ventilation and view, using standing seam metal roofing for a shallow pitch, and extending eaves for better solar control.
One major theme throughout the conversation is budget control. Jeff expected to go over budget and planned accordingly. To manage costs, he and his wife performed significant sweat equity—handling their own painting, buying materials directly, and even building a gabion retaining wall with salvaged demolition materials. He gives us a clear picture of what it’s like to be deeply involved in every phase, from designing detailed drawings to supervising subpar subcontractors.
Jeff also dives into the practicalities of contracting. He chose a cost-plus model with a contractor who offered a flat project management fee and was flexible enough to let the homeowners self-perform parts of the job. Still, Jeff cautions that this level of involvement is only feasible for someone with this level of experience, and even then, it’s challenging.
We reflect on how this personal project will improve Jeff’s work with clients, especially in understanding the emotional and financial intensity of home renovations. He emphasizes that great drawings and clear scopes are essential and that homeowners must stay engaged throughout the build to ensure quality.
Jeff’s favorite part? Knowing the critical issues have been resolved—no more water in the basement or structural worries. His wife? She loves the kitchen. Together, they’ve created a space that’s practical, beautiful, and built to last.
Voiceover (00:03):
Everyone says how horrible it'll be to renovate or build your house, we're here to say, it doesn't have to be that way. Join three seasoned architects as they interview homeowners who recently completed a large project and ask them one simple question, “What do you know now that you wish you knew before you started?” Welcome to Home: The Second Story Podcast.
Marilyn Moedinger (00:27):
Hi, and welcome to Home: The Second Story. We are three residential architects sharing real conversations with homeowners who've taken on custom home or renovation projects. If you haven't already, check out our first episode to hear more about us and why we're doing this.
I am Marilyn Moedinger from Runcible Studios in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and Boston, Massachusetts, joined by my co-hosts …
Sheri Scott (00:50):
Sheri Scott of Springhouse Architects in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Taylor Davis (00:54):
And I'm Taylor Davis of TPD Architect in Birmingham, Alabama. And today we are joined by Jeff from Charlottesville, Virginia. Welcome to the show.
Jeff Sties (01:04):
Thank you very much. Glad to be here.
Taylor Davis (01:07):
We are glad you're here too. And what we generally do is we get a quick orientation for everybody to talk about your project a little bit, just so we get the basic parameters. So, where was your project located?
Jeff Sties (01:19):
We are in Charlottesville, Virginia.
Taylor Davis (01:21):
Oh, lovely, Charlottesville. We love Charlottesville, a couple UVA people here too.
Jeff Sties (01:27):
We do too.
Taylor Davis (01:29):
(Laughs) so was the project a new build addition or renovation?
Jeff Sties (01:34):
It was a tear down of an existing sunroom off the back of the 1957 brick rancher that we bought about 25 years ago. So, it was a tear down renovation with some additional scope of work to repair parts of the old house.
Taylor Davis (01:50):
Nice. A complex project. (Sarcastically) One of those easy ones.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:55):
Just a simple little project.
Taylor Davis (01:55):
Just a simple little project. So, when did you start and when did you move in?
Jeff Sties (02:02):
So, we started in June of 2024, so exactly a year ago.
Taylor Davis (02:06):
Oh, that's pretty good.
Jeff Sties (02:07):
And the project took about five months. So, we tried to wrap it up by Thanksgiving, let's put it that way.
Taylor Davis (02:12):
You mentioned 50s rancher, so size, and you've already sort of said style, I'm assuming we're coordinating with 50s rancher.
Jeff Sties (02:21):
Not quite.
Taylor Davis (02:22):
Aha, that's why it's good to ask.
Jeff Sties (02:24):
It's a brick rancher, so I wasn't going to do brick, that's too expensive. My own personal style as an architect is just clean lines, usually a playful or careful arrangement of windows. I like to do a nice broad eave or overhang.
And we did an exposed just concrete block foundation like the existing house so pretty simple but nice clean lines. I should add the interior has a bit of a mid-century modern vibe to make my wife happy.
Taylor Davis (02:52):
Aw. So, what we didn't mention in the intro is that you are actually an architect. So, our next question is generally, there are lots of different ways to work with an architect and we don't really need to know how you worked with an architect as that was sort of implicit in the whole project (laughs).
Jeff Sties (03:09):
Exactly.
Marilyn Moedinger (03:10):
You are a residential architect and you have been doing this for a while, and you haven't been able to do your house until now.
Jeff Sties (03:18):
Correct.
Marilyn Moedinger (03:19):
What was the catalyst that got you going on your own house?
Jeff Sties (03:23):
So, like I said, we bought the house about 25 years ago, and it was in what we call move in condition, it was very good shape. The back porch started to fall apart over the next decade or so. It was very, very poorly built.
For example, the big glazing units that were back there started to fog up, they were individual insulated units set in red oak frames that were ripped and milled on site, the parquet floor was coming up, it had an unsealed crawl space. The floor joint set directly on top of the CMU foundation, there's no sill plate, there's no anchors, no straps, nothing.
Marilyn Moedinger (03:57):
No problem.
Jeff Sties (03:58):
No problem. The roof pitch is like three in 12 so where you have a cross gable where the porch comes into the main house had very low valley rafters, and those valleys would fill up with pollen and snow and leaves in the fall and I was scrambling up the ladder a couple times a year and so that was …
It was time for the old porch to come down. We always knew we wanted to do that, but we had to wait until our son was out of college. And the longer we waited, the closer we got finished to paying off the mortgage, which we actually did this month, so we kind of-
Sheri Scott (04:32):
It's a celebration.
Jeff Sties (04:36):
But in the meantime, we only wanted to borrow a certain amount of money because we knew we would overlap for a year with the mortgage. So, we were very careful in our timing.
Marilyn Moedinger (04:45):
You got to be in the house for a long time. So, not just your own knowledge about how to do houses, but also your specific knowledge of being in the house for a while. So, what insights did that give you when it was time to put pen to paper?
Jeff Sties (05:01):
When you've been in a house for 25 years and you've already made significant repairs, most of them yourself, there are some things that you can't fix. And for my wife and I, we figured we're just going to stay here. I mean, we're in our mid to late 50s and we've got a rancher with three bedrooms, one bath, a tiny little kitchen and an even smaller dining room.
We had hydrostatic pressure problems on the uphill side, some of the old wood siding up in the gable ends were starting to come apart. It was the original wood siding, and we really needed a new kitchen and the back porch is falling apart.
So, we started with a list of all the things that we really wanted to do or needed to do to stay here through retirement, that's the goal. And then, yes, you sit down, you start to think about ways to save money as an architect.
Like I wanted to try to reuse the existing foundation and footing, and that didn't work as well as I had hoped but the rest of it was a complete tear down. There was nothing worth saving.
Marilyn Moedinger (05:56):
On the porch, you mean?
Jeff Sties (05:58):
Yeah, on the porch. And we did live here during the construction which was really interesting. Very dirty and because we did a complete kitchen remodel, we went two months without a functioning kitchen and that was lots of fun (laughs) but we survived.
Marilyn Moedinger (06:17):
Well, and here you are to tell the tale (laughs). You've obviously designed lots of other people's houses. What were some of the things that you have done for other people that informed what you did for yourself?
Jeff Sties (06:30):
The new addition is 18 feet wide and instead of being 12 feet deep, we made it 16. And I needed to do that to put in a decent sized dining room that we could put furniture in and kind of use as a casual hangout space. We wanted a little peninsula and we wanted a proper mudroom and a new bathroom.
In the bathroom, I decided based on work I had done, let's tile all the way to the ceiling and really enjoy that space. Between the dining room and the mud room on the old porch, it was all wide open so you could see from the porch all the way out to the driveway.
So, to preserve that for here, and I've done this with clients, I put in a pass-through window so we can sit in the dining room and see out to the driveway, and it's letting air and ventilation come through and it's really wonderful, so yeah, some of my experience did inform the new design.
And of course, the slope of the roof because it's so deep, the porch, we had to do a one and three quarter inch pitch, which was fine. I've done that with clients before and it just means you're using a standing seam metal roof and that was fine.
Taylor Davis (07:35):
So, I have a question about an architect being their own architect. And I am about to embark on a little bathroom renovation myself. And one of the things … it's really easy for me to make decisions for other people; it's harder for me to make decisions for myself.
Did you come up against a process where you're like, “I know all of the options.” Maybe I'm just talking from my own place of difficulty but (laughs) I think I'm curious to hear how that design process went for you.
Jeff Sties (08:08):
I don't think I had that sort of issue. I mean, there were — look, it's a really small program, it's a dining room, a new bathroom, and a mudroom and we were on a tight budget, and I knew we would be over budget, so we started from that point of view.
And we knew that there were ways to save money, like doing sweat equity which I'd love to talk about and selecting general contractors based on the scope of work that we would identify for them and so I did keep it simple on purpose.
So, I didn't try to do anything fancy with eliminating the baseboard trim or eliminating the window casing, we just did one by four flat stock and just said, “This is it. This is what we can afford. We'd rather spend the money on the cabinets.” This is what I tell my clients to do all the time. You have to prioritize; you have to make a Wishlist and then a must-have list and a lot of what you want belongs on that Wishlist.
So, we really focused and we spent about a year going through a very basic design process, talking about finishes, we just did red oak flooring for the addition and the new kitchen. We didn't try to do anything fancy like five-inch white oak, which is phenomenally expensive right now. We splurged where we wanted to on the kitchen cabinets and the countertops, and we kept everything else really simple.
Marilyn Moedinger (09:28):
I think that's really key.
Taylor Davis (09:30):
Well, and I love that you said it took you a year to go through this “small addition” for the design process. I mean, I think that's really telling a lot. When we talk to homeowners, a lot of times the expectation is that we can design it in a couple of weeks and we're good to go.
Jeff Sties (09:45):
Part of that was my schedule, my wife's schedule, part of that was trying to find a builder.
Marilyn Moedinger (09:50):
Yeah, let's talk about that.
Jeff Sties (09:51):
So, I think we talked to maybe three or four different builders. We started off with one I was very comfortable with, realized we probably couldn't afford their overhead.
Sheri Scott (10:02):
Did you already know all of these builders from your practice?
Jeff Sties (10:07):
No. So, the first one I knew, the builder we ended up hiring, was one that I had met and interviewed with for a client years ago but never found a chance to work with and I'll tell you about him in a second.
And then one or two in the middle were smaller firms that I had come across or either got recommended from people in my contact list that we would've felt comfortable with. But in the end, the builder that we hired has a really interesting business model.
He has a $1,500 a month flat, project management fee. And then he puts 15% on top of all the subs’ work which is pretty standard around here, somewhere between 15 and 18% standard. So, what he represented to us was a significant savings in the project management fees which for my clients, I typically see in line-item number one in general conditions is: $50 $60,000 for the in-house manager and another $60,000 for their site supervisor.
So, I'm looking at $120 to $130,000 right off the bat for each one of my clients and so you just say, “Well, you can't do that on a small renovation job.”
Marilyn Moedinger (11:14):
I know that you said one of the other things that was important to you with finding a builder was finding someone who would work with you in the way that you wanted to work so you wanted to do sweat equity stuff. Like you wanted to get involved in certain line items and scopes of work, so-
Jeff Sties (11:30):
You said “want to get involved”.
Marilyn Moedinger (11:31):
I was going to say, maybe want isn't the right word, maybe-
Jeff Sties (11:35):
Maybe we needed to get involved, yes.
Marilyn Moedinger (11:36):
Necessitated.
Jeff Sties (11:38):
Necessitated. But we had renovated a house in Lutherville, Maryland before we moved down here so Stacy and I did a lot of work for that. And then over the 20 plus years that we were here, we did everything or I did a lot of the really heavy stuff.
I sweated copper pipe, and I replaced siding, and I laid tile, and I've replaced all the plumbing fixtures, all of the white fixtures. We did a significant amount of work to this house, so we were not unfamiliar with the amount of time and skills that would be required to do it.
So, we really banked on that honestly, that we would pull some scope of work away from the general contractor and do it ourselves. We just didn't know how much or what it would be until we really got into it, into the thick of it. But this general contractor, we were very grateful to him because he was willing to let us do that and there's pros and cons to that.
One is that you're getting mixed up into their schedule. He's got the plumbers, the framers, the electricians, he's got all this guy's schedule, and you want to stick yourself into that schedule, you can really make a mess of the schedule doing that and cause other problems.
Marilyn Moedinger (12:43):
You said you were going to do X, Y, Z and it's got to be done by Friday because on Monday the plumbers are coming and you can't get it done then you've messed up the schedule.
Jeff Sties (12:52):
There were a lot of nights where I was, after dinner would go and put blocking. I installed the blocking for the niche in the shower, and I did the blocking for the medicine cabinet, the bathroom and I put blocking up where the framers forgot to put it up for the cabinets and for the coat hook and all the other stuff and just on and on.
So, we were over budget as expected, about $50,000, more than we wanted to borrow because interest rates didn't come down. And so, we pulled about 50 grand out of the scope of work and Stacy and I either did it ourselves or we went out and got competitive bids on countertops and other materials.
I bought a lot of materials myself, all the trim package, all the plumbing fixtures, all the lighting fixtures, anything I could buy, I bought myself. Gravel for the driveway when we redid that or I found subs and hired them directly, so we did all the above.
One of the items on the list that we made of repairs that we wanted to make was the uphill side of the gable end of the house on the driveway, had hydrostatic pressure problems and we were getting water in the basement. Every time we got one of those multi-day three-inch rains, water was coming in and it was just unbearable.
What we had them do was completely excavate all the way down the footing. I power washed and scraped a foundation myself, because that was missing from the general contractor's scope of work between the water proofers and excavator guy. So I jumped down in that hole and did it myself.
The water proofing crew came in, did exactly what I specified and we actually had to use a subcontractor that my general contractor was not familiar with and really didn't want to work with but they would do that job where they make sure the foundations all clean and repaired, they put down fresh spray on tar.
I had to put up a layer of insulation and then a layer of dimple board because I don't like just the regular protection board stuff. And I had them bring it all the way down over the footing. I also had to put on a bead of really thick tar but at the cold joint which is the bottom of the foundation wall on top of footing because that's where the water pressure was coming through.
So, that was something that I detailed very carefully and we did have to use a special sub to do it. And then that entire benched trench was filled with gravel and two drain pipes going out. The other part of that project was to lower the driveway on the side yard by about 14 inches. So, we're a little bit downhill from our neighbors about two feet and when we lowered it, it got even worse.
And where we had a small stone rubble wall that was kind of a low retaining wall between our driveway and the neighbors was now suddenly about 30 inches. So, we came back with an idea, a friend of mine, a structural engineer had used at his house to put in a gabion wall system. So, that was another piece of the scope of work that I did myself.
I bought about seven tons of gravel to level out the driveway, which I did myself. We ordered the gabions about 54 foot long, 18 inches wide, two feet high, I leveled out all the driveway and my wife and I built the cages, set them, and I used all the salvage brick and block from the tear down of the porch to line the inside of the gabions and then I bought stone and topped it off.
And I've got one little section of gabion left to do, but it was an enormous project between that and spending the entire month of August painting because my wife and I did all of the interior and exterior painting. I was on a 16-foot ladder for about three weeks. That's how we were able to save a lot of money but if I had fallen off that ladder once, it would've made it not worth it.
Taylor Davis (16:35):
Can you explain to our listeners what a gabion wall is? Because I don't know that everybody knows what that is.
Jeff Sties (16:39):
Sure. Well, if you're on the coast, and you know what a crab pod is, a crab pot's a big metal cage, just think bigger, made out of heavier gauge wire-
Marilyn Moedinger (16:47):
Spoken like a guy from Baltimore (laughs).
Jeff Sties (16:51):
I'm from Richmond, but grew up on the Rappahannock, so there you go. Did a lot of crabbing when I was a kid. So, a gabion wall system is a metal cage made out of heavy-duty wire, it's welded together. They ship it flat, you put it together on site, they give you extra spools of wire. So, a pair of nippers and wire and you're twisting little rings and you're putting it together.
You lift up the lid, you put your rock or block or whatever you want inside it, and you close the lid and wire is shut. The wire stays in place, it's permanent and because I used a really nice mountain stone, it's lovely and if you want a picture, I'll send it to you.
Marilyn Moedinger (17:31):
We'd love to see. So, the pros are obviously that you saved money.
Jeff Sties (17:36):
We did and we actually finished in the black. In other words, we actually saved and came in a little under budget.
Marilyn Moedinger (17:45):
Wow, that never happens.
Sheri Scott (17:49):
It's impressive.
Marilyn Moedinger (17:50):
But that takes a ton of work, not just the sweat equity part, but I'm guessing also there's a whole other, and I'd love to hear some of the other work you're doing, you are watching the project like a hawk, the drawings are really good, I've built from Jeff Sties drawings, so I know (laughs).
Jeff Sties (18:07):
I'm rather well known as doing a very thorough set of drawings and like I said, even though the scope of work was quite small, yes I did framing details and some of the things. And yes, I was on site and I would come out at lunchtime and look at what they were doing and was often very disappointed, so-
(Laughter)
Jeff Sties (18:25):
It was very frustrating.
Marilyn Moedinger (18:26):
And how did that go? No, that's interesting. So, how did that go? Those conversations when you were-
Jeff Sties (18:32):
So, the general contractor would show up in the morning and he and I would have discussion with him and the subs about what was going to happen that day and what needed to be done. The GC would disappear and the crew would go at it, whatever they were doing for their scope of work.
And I would try not to babysit them but I would check on them from time to time. And for the most part, I mean, some of the subs we had were absolutely fabulous, I have to say. But there were two or three that really did not do a very good job.
There was one I almost fired and there was another one I should have fired, but he was 95% done with the scope of work and there's no way I'm going to find another one of those guys by Tuesday so you just have to, so I put a lawn chair out in the front yard, and I watched him for the rest of the day.
(Laughter)
Marilyn Moedinger (19:19):
Boss move (laughs).
Jeff Sties (19:22):
It was an act of desperation, but when they're just making such a mess of the process, what else could you do? And like I said, I had already done an enormous amount of work and to see somebody come in and just do such a poor job was just heartbreaking, so.
Marilyn Moedinger (19:40):
Well, and you know what you're looking at, that's the other thing. I'm imagining the average homeowner listening to this and saying, “Wow, this sounds great, I'm going to sit on the lawn chair and make sure they … but you know what you're looking at (laughs).
Jeff Sties (19:53):
Yeah, no, homeowners really have no idea and it does make me worry as an architect how much I don't get to see in terms of the construction of my client's projects because I can't be out there every day.
And I'm lucky if I get out there a couple times during framing and maybe two or three more times for the rest of the project. But yeah, some of the quality of construction that I see both at my house and on the job site is extremely poor quality.
And I talked to the project managers or the owners of the companies, and they all tell me the same thing, it's finding good qualified labor who shows up every day is extremely difficult so I feel for them.
Taylor Davis (20:30):
I think that's a good point, that it's not always — the contractors may be doing the best they can but we have a real labor issue and that's all across the country. And skilled trades folks are tough to come by and the ones that are good are expensive and that's a really hard needle to thread.
Marilyn Moedinger (20:51):
And we have had for a while too. Like this trade, this shortage is not new. It's not like a since COVID thing, it's as long as I've been in the business.
Sheri Scott (21:00):
Going back to design, you said that you're known for having complete drawings, so how much did you have detailed and specified out when you started (laughs)?
Jeff Sties (21:14):
So, I do framing drawings and that's so I can make sure duct work and plumbing is going to work and even though it was just a — and we do have a crawl space, but we insulated it and conditioned it. So, I could run my HVAC out there and my plumbing lines back and forth.
I'm, working in a BIM software package called ArchiCAD, and I'm drawing the pipes and I'm making sure I've got clearances and then I'll meet with the plumbers or the HVAC guys to make sure that the duct work's got to be typed underside of choice guys because the plumber's coming in under you and they're like, “Yeah, yeah, okay.” It's like you just want to have that meeting, but the drawings help, so I did that. I did exactly what I do for my clients, I did for myself.
And I did have some one-and-a-half-inch plan details because we were taken out a bearing wall between the old brick house and the sun porch. So, I've got a, I think it's a double nine and a half by, was it one and three quarters by nine and a half inch LVL spanning over the opening between the kitchen and the dining room in front of me.
And I ran it by a structural engineer just to make sure my deflection was okay and I've got a PSL column picking up the end. And so, how that was going to sit on my foundation which it's a CMU, but it has a very strange concrete bond beam.
So, yeah, it's something they did back then I see it quite often in the houses around here. But I did some section details and some plan details, and then how does the low slope interface with my low slope, stick-built, roof on the old house too.
Sheri Scott (22:50):
That's great. And then how did selections go? At what point did you bring your wife into the project?
Jeff Sties (22:57):
I involved my wife in every phase of the project.
Sheri Scott (23:01):
Good answer.
Marilyn Moedinger (23:01):
There we go.
(Laughter)
Jeff Sties (23:05):
Not a single fixture in this house was selected without her input. And then she really picked out cabinets and we looked at a couple different countertops, we ended up with a Silestone seaport, which she loved. Originally, we kind of looked at the Alberene soapstone, the quarry is just south of us.
Marilyn Moedinger (23:25):
I have a piece in my house, Jeff, I had them bring it up (laughs).
Jeff Sties (23:29):
I have scraps that I bought from some guy's backyard in Buckingham County, we put in the bathroom. And there's scraps in everybody's backyards of stepping stones but the new material that I saw in the showrooms had these really unusual kind of rusty looking specs in it and I asked one of the showroom sales reps, I said, “What is that?” They said, “That's pyrite.”
But it didn't have the look that my wife and I wanted and it was the most expensive product in the yard. So, the — stone, even though this was one of the more expensive colors that they offer in their product line it was still less expensive than the soapstone.
And then for other colors, the one place my wife and I disagreed on was the paint color. She saw some lovely blue shade and this was kind of prior to picking out the cabinets final. But once we had picked out the cabinets and the countertop, and it was all starting to come together as a palette, she said, “So, we're going to paint the walls blue?” And I said, “No, you can't paint it blue.”
So, I told her to go back onto the website and do a Google search for, “What color do I paint my walls if the cabinets are wood?” And sure enough, it was like a cream or a beige or something and so I used the power of the internet to my advantage to persuade my wife to-
Taylor Davis (24:53):
None of us have ever done that. That's never happened. We've never done that.
Jeff Sties (24:57):
It's Benjamin Moore's Windswept, it's lovely. The tile in the bathroom is actually … the shower is actually one that one of my clients picked out. And I had shown her pictures of it, but we went to the showroom together and saw it, and we both fell in love with it.
And so, I bought all the tile off the shower, and we did niches around a window frame, we did a picture with again, it's a quartz composite, white trim with the blue tile and it looks lovely. So, we're very happy with the final finishes.
Sheri Scott (25:27):
So, you had shared that at some point some of the subcontractors were not doing the work that you wanted to do. I kind of wondered what your relationship with the general contractor was at that point. Was he open to you, helping or how was that relationship?
Jeff Sties (25:49):
When the owner and the architect are both on site and there's drawings that detail what's supposed to be done and you go out and you see the guys putting up the exterior trim at the top of the hardy plank siding, and there's no strip that allows the rain screen to breathe because Virginia gets 60 inches of rain a year and so I do a rain screen assembly on all of my projects.
I asked the trim guys, “Where's that little strip that allows the air to flow through the top of the wall?” And the guy said in his best English, “Well, the material never showed up, so we just rolled without it.”
Sheri Scott (26:30):
Oh, wow.
Jeff Sties (26:33):
So, that was the only time I had to tell them to stop, tear it off, go to the store, buy the material, and do it over again. And they were shocked, they went all asking and like, “Oh, my god, what?” But there are some things that — I have many years of construction administration experience and you learn very quickly that you're not going to get everything so you pick your fights very carefully.
So, this was one of those things that I felt like, “No, we're not going to do that. I want you to climb down off the ladder, go to the store, get the proper material, and we'll see you back here in 30 minutes.”
Sheri Scott (27:10):
And I think it's important that you say the drawings backed you up, which is part of the contract.
Jeff Sties (27:16):
Yeah, but these guys aren't looking at the drawings.
Sheri Scott (27:18):
No, but your general contractor should have.
Jeff Sties (27:22):
Nobody looks at the drawings.
Marilyn Moedinger (27:23):
I know, that's the thing. They're not looking at the drawings, but at least they're there, it's better than not having them.
Jeff Sties (27:32):
At one point I was so frustrated and it was last summer when it was a hundred degrees, so it was hot as blazes, but I took a little folding table, they had just put down the floor joist with the AdvanTech subfloor. And I put the little folding table in the middle of the floor, rolled out my drawings, put two bricks on the end, and I left it right in their work zone so they would have to move my drawings before they could start the day's work as in, “These are here for you.”
I did have a few moments or a few times where I would open up the drawings and show them something and the framer guy would sort of nod and say, “Okay, yeah, we can do that or something.” But yeah, it was very frustrating and I see this all the time on my client's projects as well.
Marilyn Moedinger (28:16):
You know what's wild though is I've heard it said that, “Okay, well they don't look at the drawings, so what's the point of the drawings? We just shouldn't have them.” And I'm like, “No, no, no, they don't look at the drawings, so we should make them look at the drawings (laughs). Not, oh, well that's just a speed bump that we should just remove from them,” and that's really silly.
That's really, really silly because as Sheri's saying, and as we all know, the drawings are actually the contract between the owner and the general contractor, that's what it is. They're called contract documents for a reason.
And I think that the more that's drawn in there, the more that is understood that that's the case, that that's important. But yeah, it's not a reason to, “Oh, they don't look at drawings, oh, well then we shouldn't have drawings, who cares?” No! Wrong answer.
Jeff Sties (29:03):
They're so used to doing what they did on the last job and maybe on the last job there wasn't an architect so they do what they do and they're used to using the same materials over and over again, so yes, it's always good to have drawings, it's always good to have material and appliance schedules, it's always good to have some basics.
I'd like to do my specifications right on the drawings, I don't put them in a separate document that can get lost. I do everything I can for my clients to make sure that what we want is on those drawings somewhere.
Marilyn Moedinger (29:34):
Because that's what they're paying for.
Jeff Sties (29:36):
That's what you're paying for.
Taylor Davis (29:37):
Well, and it should be what the contractor priced, I mean, that's the other piece of all of this too, is that the drawings should be what the subs use to create their pricing for all of those and what the general contractor used to do his pricing.
So, to sort of abandon ship with drawings, if you've used them correctly at the outset to get construction costs to abandon them for the actual construction, you're sort of left not knowing what you've paid for to a certain extent and that can be really dangerous.
Jeff Sties (30:07):
And one of our challenges was when we got the estimate from the builder, and like I said, we were about $50,000 over budget, I could look at some of the line items and say, “Well, that looks really high.” Interior trim at $14,000? We don't have any crown molding, I'm doing a flat stock one by four, that's ridiculous.
But you don't know as you get into it whether or not when that scope of work is finished, if you're going to get a bill for $14,000 or $12,000. And so, that was really the impetus for my wife and I to start as we were going along, figure out what scope of work do we want to take on, what do we have time to do? What can we pull out? And is it something that we feel comfortable doing?
But you really have no choice. Well, we really felt like we had no choice. It was either that, or you were going to run out of money before the job was over.
Taylor Davis (30:54):
So, did you do stipulated sum or cost plus?
Jeff Sties (30:57):
It's cost plus.
Taylor Davis (30:58):
It was cost plus, okay. I mean, I think that's a question because people have that question a lot is, “What kind of contract should we engage in with our contractors? Should we do it as a stipulated sum? Should we do it as a cost plus?” And there are pros and cons to all of my … I mean, we see a lot more cost plus too but I think that's an important question.
Jeff Sties (31:19):
The inside joke of course, is that a lot of those line items are padded out either by the subcontractors or by the general contractor.
(Laughter)
Jeff Sties (31:29):
And so, you never really know what the cost of construction's going to be.
Marilyn Moedinger (31:33):
This is the part where I admit that. So, you all listeners have heard me say before that I have worked as a general contractor. So, we are actually on a call, we're doing this podcast today with someone, with Jeff, who was an architect who I built for so yeah.
(Laughter)
Sheri Scott (31:54):
You're making an admission here, yes.
Marilyn Moedinger (31:55):
I'm making an admission. So, since we're almost out of time and we have to go, we can't tell any horrible stories. I also just want to say too that from the contractor's perspective, it's all about who's taking the risk.
So, in the fixed price, the contractor's taking the risk. So yeah, everything's padded out because you're taking the risk. You don't know if that's what it's really going to cost and you have to say before you're into it that that trim's going to be 14 grand, if it comes in at 20, you're eating that six. But if it comes at 11, you've made an extra three.
So, for the owners to have that peace of mind that they have a fixed price comes at a cost because now the builder's assuming the risk and the opposite is true. So, the time and materials or cost plus puts the risk on the owner. And I think it's important to … like neither one is perfect, there's reasons for going for either one.
Jeff Sties (32:53):
And similarly, since we're all architects, it's very similar with architectural fees.
Marilyn Moedinger (32:56):
That's right.
Jeff Sties (32:57):
If a client asks me for a fixed price or a not to exceed amount, I have to give them a number that's higher than what I think it's going to be because I don't want to lose my shirt.
Marilyn Moedinger (33:07):
That's right. And you also don't know how difficult (laughs) the project will be, what challenges are around the corner, that's right. And by the way, I have not yet met a client who — every single client I talk to says, “I'm super decisive and we have lots of time to meet (laughs) and this is going to be really smooth and we're really dedicated to making decisions quickly.”
And you know what, I believe that most of them really do believe that. Everyone is coming from a good place, people are not trying to … but the reality of it maybe is slightly different.
Sheri Scott (33:42):
But Taylor started this conversation out, when it's your project, it feels different, it really does. Making those decisions just get harder.
Marilyn Moedinger (33:50):
And I think that's why we're excited to have you on Jeff with your unique perspective. And I guess, well, you sort of alluded to some of these things already, but I'd like to hear, knowing what you know now, would you have done anything differently? Like sort of going through that whole process, would you do anything differently?
Jeff Sties (34:09):
Yes, although hindsight's wonderful when you're in the thick of it and you're trying to get sub scheduled and you've got to make decisions and at one point I ordered a toilet for the new bathroom and it showed up on time broken, and I had to get another one. It's a whole different ball game when you're trying to do this on the fly.
So, that's the caveat, but sure, if I had to do anything over again, I think we might've gotten more bids on say the cabinets. Just getting one more bid would've maybe saved us a little bit more money or when I saw some of the contractors doing work that I thought was substandard, I didn't want to jump in because I thought, “It's okay,” but I really wish in some places I had jumped in and said, “No, no, stop what you're doing. Think about it.” That meant I had to be on site all the time, so it's always a tradeoff.
Marilyn Moedinger (35:05):
For sure.
Jeff Sties (35:08):
The real benefit to being the homeowner architect on this is really going to be for my clients because I feel like the experience was invaluable.
Being here — and I've got a client now that was planning on staying in their house while they did a complete gut rehab and I had to tell them, “Look, you have no idea what you're thinking about doing here, this is going to be really, really difficult with the noise and the dust.” And so, that type of experience is something I'll be able to share more effectively with my clients.
Marilyn Moedinger (35:40):
I found that too after doing my own house that I had just a whole new perspective. It feels different, you know intellectually that your clients are writing really big checks to the contractor but until you do that, I don't know, that was wild. Like watching that much money go in and out the door and it's different when it's your own and I'm really glad to have that experience to carry forward for my clients in a very visceral way (laughs).
Jeff Sties (36:06):
And just going through the loan process and interviewing builders, the whole process was very beneficial.
Marilyn Moedinger (36:14):
There's one story I do want to tell, I know we're running long here but there is one story I want to tell about the project when I was project managing that I built for Jeff when he was in Batesville in Virginia.
So, just along the lines of watching the contractor, so I was the contractor, so I was watching my concrete sub and I don't know if you remember this story Jeff, so maybe this will be the first time you're hearing it. Maybe I never told you, we're going to do it live.
So, you had given me a set of drawings and it was for pricing or something like that and it said, “Not for construction,” in giant letters across the foundation plan. And I went out there to check on the concrete pour and it was a big full activation, full basement.
I go out there to check because the concrete guy had said he was having trouble reading the drawings. And he's like, “It's a mess and I can't see.” And I was like, “Oh boy, that's weird, these drawings are really clear.”
So, I go out there and he's got the pricing set in his hand and he goes, “I can't read the dimensions, the C from not for construction is in the way of the dimension.” And I said, “Why don't you look at these drawings which are the project record set,” which the super, who was fantastic on the job, had them right there.
They were right there. It was like, “Just look over here, the C for not for construction is in the way.” He couldn't see the dimension. Classic, and that was going through so many … like how-
Taylor Davis (37:52):
The C from not for construction (laughs).
Marilyn Moedinger (37:54):
How many layers do we need to go through? And that was like the architect had done the right thing, the project manager, me, had done the right thing, the super had done the right thing. The sub was a really good sub, but his guy on site, so that's like five people removed was the one who was pulling the trigger on pouring concrete, not something you can fix easily (laughs). So, anyway, keep an eye on things, lesson of the day (laughs).
Jeff Sties (38:22):
Yep. Pay your architect.
Marilyn Moedinger (38:22):
Pay your architect.
(Laughter)
Jeff Sties (38:24):
Pay your architect to come out. I tell my clients this all the time, “I will be on your site during concrete framing because if you're going to have a mistake happen, it'll be during framing.” And after framing you'll hardly see me, but …
Marilyn Moedinger (38:41):
Well, I guess to wrap us up here, our last question, we like to end on a positive note here to say, not that we haven’t been positive, but to take us out (laughs). So, no project is perfect obviously, but what's something or more than one thing maybe that every time you walk in you just love about the house?
Jeff Sties (39:02):
Sure. So, I checked with my wife before she left, for her, it's definitely the kitchen. She loves the kitchen, it's wonderful. For me, kind of the funny response is it's all the stuff that we fixed that I don't have to worry about anymore.
Marilyn Moedinger (39:20):
That's a great answer.
Taylor Davis (39:20):
That's a great answer. I love that.
Jeff Sties (39:23):
Having to stay up until one o'clock in the morning with a shop-vac in the basement because water's pouring in through the gable end wall is something I will remember fondly from years past or years in the future.
Marilyn Moedinger (39:38):
You've bought your freedom (laughs).
Jeff Sties (39:40):
I've bought some measure of sanity. But from an architectural perspective there's a bunch of things I was really happy with, including the pass-through window and just some little things, not expensive stuff but just really simple little things.
And for people doing renovation work, whether to stop the tile at six, eight or go all the way to the ceiling, it's such a small amount of material that if you like that look, you should just do it, that's really important.
The other thing I love is the 20-inch overhang that I put around the house that goes right behind me is west, that's west, that's north. So, we knew from the old porch that this space gets really hot in the summertime despite all the deciduous trees, so I wanted as deep an overhang as I could.
And I think one of the first iterations of the design had diagonal brackets and a four-foot overhang and you think, “This is crazy.” So, the 20-inch overhang is great and it just really makes the project more interesting. It's just hardy plank and maven windows and metal roof, but that overhang I think really makes a difference.
Marilyn Moedinger (40:46):
Yeah, that's great. That's a great answer.
Taylor Davis (40:49):
Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. It's great to get the perspective of another architect doing their own home, we really appreciate it.
Jeff Sties (40:58):
Thank you.
Taylor Davis (40:58):
I think it's going to be really valuable for our listeners to hear what it's really like on the other side of a project as usual and to get your perspective is really valuable, thank you.
Jeff Sties (41:09):
You're quite welcome. Thank you for having me.
Marilyn Moedinger (41:11):
Well, we'll do the future episode where you can spill all the dirt about working with me as a contractor in the future (laughs). Thanks again, Jeff, I really, really appreciate it.
Jeff Sties (41:24):
You all are quite welcome. It was my pleasure.
(Transition)
Sheri Scott (41:28):
Well, that was a different take.
Marilyn Moedinger (41:31):
Yeah, something a little different. It's great to hear his perspective. I also want to underline the caution of … I'm worried everyone's (laughs) going to listen and say, “Oh great, I'm going to do that too (laughs).”
So, we've had a few different ones where someone is taking on more of the work because they have that level of expertise and the time to do it, so just underlining that, like proceed with caution (laughs).
Taylor Davis (41:59):
Some contractors are not going to be amenable to you doing the work. Most don't want you in there.
Marilyn Moedinger (42:02):
For insurance reasons, yeah.
Taylor Davis (42:04):
Right. And honestly, we really put kind of a hard line with our own work and ask that folks not be their own contractors. Because a lot of times that puts the onus on the architect to be the general contractor and we're not licensed or insured to do that.
So, if that's something that's really important to someone, you really have to vet out your team pretty carefully.
Marilyn Moedinger (42:30):
Still though, I was very interested to hear Jeff say something that a few of our interviews, folks have said at different times, which is to not be afraid to jump in, this is a recurring theme. And so, we've heard this a few times at different times. If you see something, say something (laughs), what's the worst that's going to happen? They're going to say, “Oh, that we can't do that, or, oh, this or that,” but it's your house, say something.
Sheri Scott (42:59):
I don't know that I would recommend getting a folding chair and putting it in the lawn but you definitely should say something.
Marilyn Moedinger (43:06):
Yes, agreed.
Taylor Davis (43:07):
There have been times though that I think that might not be a bad idea; I had a roofer do that.
Marilyn Moedinger (43:13):
As an architect I have definitely done the equivalent of that which is basically be on site for all day.
Taylor Davis (43:18):
Show up at random times-
Sheri Scott (43:18):
When it gets to that point.
Marilyn Moedinger (43:20):
When it gets to that point, yep. Something else I wanted to just bring up that we kind of got into, but I just want to really underline is the concept of getting a quote from a contractor that says, per drawings and specs.
So, a lot of times the contractors will rewrite and say, “Electrical like this and this much tile and whatever.” No, no, no, do not. It should say per drawings and specs, this date, these drawings, that's what the estimate is based on. If they rewrite it, then you're getting whatever they wrote, not the drawings and specs. The drawings are the central thing.
Taylor Davis (44:05):
It shouldn't be your responsibility or even your architect's responsibility to go back and check a written scope of work that the contractor comes up with based on the drawing. Like that's two levels that's not appropriate.
Marilyn Moedinger (44:18):
We've already done that work.
Taylor Davis (44:18):
The contract drawings are the contract drawings, and that's what the estimate should be based on. And that's what honestly, you've paid for your architect to provide you is something that can be used as part of the contract. That's part of our responsibility and our fees that we want to be able to do that.
So, that's a really critical piece I think is that the written scope of work and we've had a couple of incidents with contractors where I have said, “We can't use this person because they don't use that clause specifically in their contracts.”
Marilyn Moedinger (44:47):
Yep. Absolutely. One thing I liked about what Jeff Sties said about one of his favorite parts of the house was that he's fixed all the little things that he now doesn't have to worry about. When you renovate a home and all these little things, like when you renovate, you get everything done and you just get to live in your house and it's all done.
Sheri Scott (45:09):
And I like that they've been in the house for a really long time and that they made that decision to stay there and didn't do a huge renovation, like a small addition. They just made it just right for them.
Marilyn Moedinger (45:22):
Well, and had to spend serious money on the non-fun, not sexy stuff whether it's waterproofing or that kind of stuff. That's not fun, but that's what's going to make the house maintenance free for the next whatever, however. You can't have water coming into your house, that will eventually cause the house to have major, major problems or fall down, so-
Taylor Davis (45:45):
When we talk about the stuff you can't show people at dinner parties and a lot of times that's the most valuable stuff you can do, is the stuff that when you're walking people through the house, you can't point to it and say, “Look at my fabulous new waterproofing on the outside of my basement or this HVAC, this new five ton unit is spectacular.” No, you can't do that, but that can be really the most valuable part of a project.
Marilyn Moedinger (46:12):
You're protecting your investment. I mean, for most people their home is the most expensive thing they own and it's really kind of wild when people are like, “Oh, let's do this cheaper thing that's inside the walls or in the foundation so that I can have fancier cabinets or countertops,” which is not what Jeff said, but this is often what we hear.
And you're like, “Okay, well that's like buying a really nice car and then neglecting to put it in a garage or just letting it never washing it or whatever.” You can't just buy the expensive thing; you need the things around it that keep it in working order.
Sheri Scott (46:44):
Thanks for joining us on Home: The Second Story. If you'd like to come on the show and share your story, email us at admin@htsspodcast.com, we'd love to have you as a guest. For more inspiring homeowner stories and tips, we'll see you next time.
[Music Playing]
Voiceover (47:02):
Thanks for listening to Home: The Second Story Podcast. Feel free to share this episode with a friend. Contact information for all three of our architects are in our show notes and don't miss future episodes. Follow or subscribe to our show for free in Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you're listening right now.