In this episode of Home: The Second Story, we sit down with Rich and Ilana from Richboro, Pennsylvania, to hear how they transformed a 1977 split-level house into a modern, functional family home. What started as a plan to build an addition over their garage snowballed into a full-house renovation, driven by necessity, creativity, and resilience.
They purchased the house knowing it was a fixer-upper — leaks and all — but were drawn in by the neighborhood's charm and school district. Rich and Ilana began demoing the upstairs, revealing the bones of a home that would evolve dramatically over the next two years. Thanks to a neighbor and a local architect who understood the nuances of split-level design, they reimagined the layout, flipping bedrooms and designing a spacious master suite above the garage.
As a software developer by trade, Rich took on the role of general contractor, coordinating tradespeople and managing timelines while doing much of the work himself, alongside his brother, a master plumber and seasoned house flipper. The process wasn’t without setbacks — a sewer backup flooded their lower level, and months later, their untouched living room ceiling collapsed. These events forced them to accelerate plans and tackle more than originally intended.
Throughout, they emphasized the importance of living in the space before making design decisions. For example, an unused gated-off staircase was removed entirely, which improved the home’s flow. They also reconfigured their split-level layout by removing interior walls, closing off unnecessary access points, and adding new elements like a slider door to the backyard — changes that made daily life smoother with two small children.
Rich and Ilana highlight how they approached design intentionally, choosing bold features like black cabinets and colorful tiles, instead of falling back on trends. They also learned about budgeting for furniture at the end of a renovation and shared their tips on tracking finishes, materials, and decisions with detailed spreadsheets.
By doing much of the work themselves and leveraging their network of family and friends, they managed to keep costs down, though at the expense of time and energy. They stress the value of hiring professionals when possible and how crucial it is to have a strong support system — both emotionally and logistically — during a renovation.
Now, with the renovation complete, they reflect proudly on what they’ve built together.
Bonus: Rich and his brother's YouTube Page: Jews WIth Screws https://www.youtube.com/@JewswithScrews
Rich and Ilana Full Show
Speakers: Taylor Davis, Sheri Scott, Marilyn Moedinger, Rich, and Ilana
[Music Playing]
Voiceover (00:02):
Everyone says how horrible it'll be to renovate or build your house — we're here to say, it doesn't have to be that way.
Join three seasoned architects as they interview homeowners who recently completed a large project, and ask them one simple question: what do you know now that you wish you knew before you started?
Welcome to Home: The Second Story Podcast.
Taylor Davis (00:25):
Welcome to Home: The Second Story. We are three residential architects sharing real conversations with homeowners who's taken on custom home or renovation projects. If you haven't already, check out our first episode to hear more about us and why we're doing this.
I'm Taylor Davis from TPD Architect in Birmingham, Alabama, and I am joined today by my co-hosts-
Sheri Scott (00:46):
I'm Sheri Scott of Springhouse Architects in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Marilyn Moedinger (00:51):
And I'm Marilyn Moedinger of Runcible Studios in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and Boston, Massachusetts. And today, we're joined by Rich and Ilana from Richboro, PA. Welcome, guys.
Ilana (01:03):
Hi.
Rich (01:03):
Hi.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:04):
So glad to have you, we're going to dive right in. Are you ready?
Ilana (01:07):
Sounds good.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:08):
Okay. Where is your project located?
Rich (01:12):
Richboro, Pennsylvania, is in Bucks County just outside of Northeast Philadelphia.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:18):
What is the project? Is it a new build, addition, renovation, some combination?
Ilana (01:22):
Combination (laughs).
Rich (01:23):
Yeah, combination. Bought it and now we've renovated the whole house. Originally, it started with an addition above our garage that was a master bath and master closet, and then slowly transformed into renovating the entire house.
Ilana (01:39):
But we did buy it knowing it was a fixer-upper. There was a leak straight from the master bath down into the garage that we could see when we bought it. We knew that.
Rich (01:49):
It was disclosed, the bath-
Marilyn Moedinger (01:51):
So, you knew you were getting into something (laughs).
Ilana (01:53):
Yes.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:55):
When did you start? Because I know your project, because I know the story a little bit and we'll get into this, but when did you start?
Rich (02:01):
We settled on August 31st, 2022. And I think we started September 1st, 2022.
Marilyn Moedinger (02:08):
Nice work.
Rich (02:09):
Next day.
Ilana (02:10):
But we were not living here.
Rich (02:13):
This is kind of interesting, I think for a lot of people, but we did what's called a lease back on our sale of our property in South Philadelphia where we kind of took a tiny haircut on the price (it was very competitive at the time) for the option to continue living there for a few months as we found the house and eventually, renovated a portion of it to be able to make it livable.
So, we sold the Southlake condo maybe June of 2022. Our contract with the person we sold to until basically Christmas. So, basically, yeah.
Marilyn Moedinger (02:47):
Okay. And then did you move in then?
Rich (02:50):
Thanksgiving of 2022. So, we came in, demoed the entire upstairs, and eventually, came up with the idea to do the addition; that was not the original game plan. And we can speak about that as far as my brother and the architecture is confirmed or concerned.
But we demoed two of the other bedrooms and the hallway bathroom so that we were in a livable scenario.
Ilana (03:16):
Yeah. And at this point, we had a nine-month-old, so we needed to have a very working bathroom and two bedrooms. So, that's kind of what we needed to-
Marilyn Moedinger (03:28):
The bare minimum to get in the door?
Rich (03:31):
Like a tub and everything.
Marilyn Moedinger (03:32):
Yeah, makes sense. So, our listeners could visualize a little bit. What was the size of the project? What style? Just kind of-
Rich (03:40):
The original house is considered like 1800 and change square feet. And it's a split level which is pretty common around here.
Ilana (03:49):
Yeah. Our neighborhood is straight out of, I mean ‘77. So, half houses are split levels, and the other half are colonials. And we bought this house because of the neighborhood. It is super family friendly, really great school district, big yard.
So, there were so many things that we knew we wanted, and this house just fit that, even though the insides didn't really fit that (laughs).
Rich (04:16):
The house, it was a time capsule from 1977.
Marilyn Moedinger (04:19):
(Laughs) That's fun. Our last sort of intro question before we dive into more of your story is, there's a lot of different ways to work with an architect from not working with one at all, to just sort of using one to inform what you're up to or to full services and all that kind of stuff. If you worked with an architect or did you, how did that play into your project?
Rich (04:42):
Yeah, so for the addition, we did work with an architect. And it was nice, it's a local guy, he's familiar with the township, so that was definitely helpful. We're in Northampton Township, if anyone's curious.
I told you this before Marilyn, but he understands the houses here really well and he did something really interesting for us that was nice to work with- where he actually flip flopped what was the master bedroom with a side bedroom or a guest bedroom, and turned that into the master so that we could build the addition over the garage and navigate into our new bathroom and closet much more easily.
And that was something that I did not really envision, it's something that comes with dealing with a professional.
Ilana (05:25):
And I'll say this, Rich kind of bypassed the whole beginning. In my head, we weren’t going to use an architect. We're trying to keep finances down, we're trying to keep a budget, all these things. So, I wasn't even thinking about an architect.
And when we bought the house, we knew, okay, these closets of this master bedroom are awful, this bathroom is awful. How are we going to rework this? And we thought about it, try this — and nothing really made sense.
And then his brother saw the house across the street from us and said, “You guys have the same exact house, but they have extra space above their garage that you guys don't have.” So, Rich went across the street, talked to the homeowner, the guy was … and he's our friend now. He let us in; he showed Rich everything.
So, Rich actually got plans from our neighbor of what he did first. And then Rich went and found an architect who then told us, let's flip flop it and make your master on this side of the house. And then everything made sense (laughs).
Rich (06:28):
He did something different too. He did do a master bathroom, but he actually did another on suite bathroom inside other guest bedrooms because he has two daughters, and I think he wanted to kind of give one of them an extra bathroom in there.
Ilana (06:42):
But all in all, hiring the architecture made all the difference because we never would've thought of that on our own. The professional thought of it and brought us to the right place.
[Laughter]
Taylor Davis (06:54):
I'm so glad you said that. That's like your soundbite, that's the one we're going to use. Of course, the professional made all the difference.
Sheri Scott (07:02):
How did you continue working with the architect? What services did you use?
Rich (07:06):
He essentially just did the plans, and he gave us a few different drafts. And it was an interesting experience; it was the first time I've ever worked with an architect or built an addition. But he gave us the plans and with a couple different options where most of the options were just like how to configure the bathroom, the rest of the plans were … there wasn't much to really play around with.
So, it was really just like where do you want the toilet and the shower and how to arrange the linen closet in the bathroom? We have a pretty large bathroom now. And then he just worked with us through the engagement of the project with the township, which was nice because the township would come through, inspect, and if there were questions the architect was available.
And you guys know this, or maybe it's different per township. You have to submit to the township, they have to approve the plans, they might ask questions. The one that kind of caught me off guard was … because we're building an addition, you have to get it resided obviously, but they were asking what type of siding and all this kind of stuff. And in my brain, it was kind of obviously, just continue the vinyl siding that we have.
But I guess that is a really interesting question because you may do brick or maybe do a different material out on that addition, and they want to know because I guess maybe they have rules about they don't want it to look super wacky for some reason or be left with plywood for eternity.
Marilyn Moedinger (08:28):
Yeah, exactly. Well, and just for our non-Pennsylvania listeners, Pennsylvania is organized by townships. So, which are tiny, tiny little (laughs) jurisdictions. So, other places are organized by county or city or town or whatever, which are usually bigger. Pennsylvania is like townships and there are a lot of them (laughs). So, everyone is their own little tiny kingdom with their own little tiny things that you got to do. So yeah, that's fun (laughs).
I really would like to hear the story of the project. So, I may know a little bit about this, but you hinted earlier that you started off with an addition, but then it turned into a renovation, and it turned into a whole thing, or started as a renovation turned into an addition. So, how did that happen? How did it go from just part of it to we're doing the whole house?
Ilana (09:24):
Well, I think we always … well, I always knew we were going to renovate the whole house.
[Laughter]
We're not super sure of what that timeline would look like depending on again, finances, children, all of those things. So, we said let's start with the addition because we know we really had no closet and no master bath. So, we really started with that. And then-
Rich (09:52):
And I will say too, we didn't buy with the intention of building the addition. We got in there, we demoed the upstairs, and we started upstairs because that previous master bathroom was inoperable. You could not use it.
We knew we had to start there. And we demoed the whole upstairs and we're sitting there, we're all kind of thinking how are we going to arrange this so we have a decent sized bathroom, and we don't eat up the whole bedroom. And then that's when my brother looked across the street and realized, “Hey, your neighbor did this addition, maybe you should do one too.”
Marilyn Moedinger (10:23):
I love that you guys demoed first and then thought about the design. I love that. So many people do the design, and then they demo, and then they might miss the opportunities that come from seeing all the bones. That's super cool.
Rich (10:37):
Yeah. Because of my brother, we're pretty comfortable digging in. He's just so capable.
Marilyn Moedinger (10:42):
Tell us a little bit about him.
Rich (10:43):
So, my brother is a master plumber in Pennsylvania, and he's also just a jack of all trades outside of that.
Ilana (10:52):
Well, he's an entrepreneur. He's flipped … before we got to our house, you guys have flipped how many houses? Four?
Rich (10:58):
Yeah, I did one with him and he's done probably three or four others prior to this. And now, he's got a few more under his belt.
He's just super capable. His first ones, he kind of started with the whole BRRRR mentality. You guys ever heard that from the Bigger Pockets Podcast? He didn't know that, but he was doing it. He's not a very big social media guy.
So, the BRRRR is Buy, Renovate, Rent, Refinance, Repeat. I might have those a little out of order. But back in 2011, 2012 as like the real estate market was kind of recovering from 2008, 2009, you could kind of get in with really low interest rates. You could renovate, the price of the property would appreciate really high, and then you would refinance your money and go get the next one.
And he did that kind of just unknowing. He bought his first house; he was still a plumber's apprentice at the time. And he basically redid the entire place himself for as little money as he could possibly do, refinanced it, and then he bought this really rundown place in Croydon. Croydon is along the river outside Philadelphia. And I said, “Mike, you bit off more than you could chew with his house.” And he turned-
Ilana (12:09):
It was like the whole room of cat pee, it was-
Marilyn Moedinger (12:12):
Perfect. That's perfect.
Rich (12:15):
And he did a beautiful job. He built like a dormer; he built a deck and renovated the entire house soup to nuts. And it was beautiful, and he sold that and cashed it out and bought his next house in Levittown for cash and renovated that while he lived there. All these houses he did while he lived there.
Marilyn Moedinger (12:33):
So, you're taking notes and you're like he can help us with this. When it's time for your project, he can help?
Rich (12:41):
I was helping a little bit at his Trevose house, the first on. But at the Croydon house and then really the Levittown house, I really started to get involved a lot more because it was COVID.
I was allowed to work from home, and I had a lot more downtime than I was used to having and would just drive up and work with him. And then that's when our YouTube channel kind of happened, The Jews With Screws and that kind of took off (laughs). I don’t know. Sorry, nothing religious. We just thought it was a funny name.
Taylor Davis (13:07):
It is hilarious actually. My husband's Jewish and the whole Jews With Screws, he would think that was hilarious because it was not his forte (laughs).
Ilana (13:20):
That’s the funny part.
Taylor Davis (13:21):
That's the funny part.
Ilana (13:22):
My dad would never pick up a screwdriver. So, the fact that him and his brother are the handiest, it’s crazy.
Rich (13:32):
Well, and I'm not-
Taylor Davis (13:32):
I think it’s fantastic (laughs).
Rich (13:34):
They made fun of me, they said I held the hammer backwards the first couple days I showed up.
[Laughter]
I’m a software developer by trade, so I'm really good with computers, but I wasn't super handy. But I worked on those few projects with him and just became a lot more comfortable. And then I saw how capable he was, so that makes me even more comfortable.
And he helped us with a couple projects. He helped us redo our bathroom down in South Philly, and a couple other things. And he's the one that recommended we buy this house when we were looking around because it was like such a steal.
2022, if nobody remembers, it was at the time when people were overbidding by like crazy. And it was right before interest rates really shot up, and this house was scaring people away with that bathroom. And we looked at it because it was like … you guys know exactly what I'm talking about, it's like that blue tile with like-
Ilana (14:26):
A blue toilet.
Marilyn Moedinger (14:27):
A blue toilet. Yeah, of course.
Rich (14:30):
So, it was like one of those and we were like we're not going to keep this bathroom anyway, so let's just discount and get after it.
Sheri Scott (14:37):
So, did you guys hire a separate contractor, or did you and your brother do all the work?
Rich (14:41):
My brother and I.
Sheri Scott (14:42):
Oh, wow. As a dad and a full-time job, and-
Ilana (14:47):
At the expense of my sanity.
Marilyn Moedinger (14:51):
That's why I'm glad you're both here. We're getting the full story.
[Laughter]
Rich (14:54):
Exactly, yeah.
Sheri Scott (14:56):
How did the timeline work out with that? Was it what you expected?
Rich (14:59):
Everything stretches out further than you expect, but it's now June of 2025 and we're like done, done.
Sheri Scott (15:07):
Nice, that's got to feel good.
Ilana (15:09):
Really good (laughs).
Rich (15:10):
I mean, obviously, there's always more you can do. We'll build a deck one day and a nice patio and that kind of stuff, but we're in the house and the house is done.
Marilyn Moedinger (15:17):
So, let's get back to the actual story of how the … so you're demoing, you looked around, you figured it out, got the architect, got your brother lined up, you're like here's what we're going to do. You start that, what happens next?
Rich (15:31):
To try to accelerate this, I played kind of GC. I didn't do everything obviously. And we hired someone that my brother works with a lot that is a local GC, but he has a framing crew. So, they framed the addition and basically enclosed it for us. And then from there, I just started organizing the couple different contractors.
We got the insulation crew, the HVAC, the electrical, the plumbing was my brother obviously. The electrician is a good friend of ours, so a lot of times, the electrical I'll do with him, helping out. And I really like to do it. I mean, I still pay him, but I really like to do it. I get to learn more, and I understand what's happening inside of our house.
We moved in Thanksgiving of 2022. I don't think the addition was completely 100% done until probably September of 2023.
Marilyn Moedinger (16:22):
And when did the ceiling story happen? Because I want you to get to that.
Rich (16:27):
There's a story before that.
Marilyn Moedinger (16:29):
Okay, story before that.
Ilana (16:30):
We move in, we're super happy and we are talking all the time about how do we want to do the renovation downstairs. Because it's a split level, we have one floor that has the kitchen, dining kind of like TV area. And then you go down the stairs and there's a laundry, a powder room, and then like another family area.
And we're just trying to figure out do we do the whole downstairs where the laundry area is first, or do we do the upstairs where the kitchen is? We're just like let's just wait. Let's save up some money and we'll talk about it in whatever amount of time. Then our powder room floods, and-
Rich (17:10):
Yeah. So, the timeline's a little off here. It happened in May of 2023. So, this is before we even finished the addition. I came back in one day, I was outside doing something, come back in, and our lower level has an inch of water hanging around, and I'm like what happened? And I've actually been through this in my South Philly house — hand to God, I'm not flushing flushable (wipes)-
[Laughter]
Marilyn Moedinger (17:34):
Good. Not with a brother who's a master plumber (laughs).
Rich (17:38):
But it's just bad luck. And our main sewer line failed and backed up into the house. So, while we're in the middle of this condition, I can't remember what phase of the project we're in, but we might not even have had sheet rock yet. Our downstairs has to get torn apart.
So, we have a good family friend who's a public adjuster, we call him, he gets the restoration services in here right away. They clean everything up downstairs and it's the whole dehumidifier. Rip out the bottom feet, put a sheet rock and all that kind of good stuff. And then we had to dig up our whole front yard and replace the sewer.
Ilana (18:14):
But again, his brother Mike did all of that.
Rich (18:18):
Not for free, but insurance paid for a big chunk.
Ilana (18:21):
And we know it's being done correctly, that's the other thing. We trust the person who's doing it.
Marilyn Moedinger (18:27):
That's huge.
Rich (18:29):
So, that influenced the whole, what are we doing next and when are we doing it? Because now we have it downstairs that's basically unusable for our little children.
Ilana (18:35):
It's like a ripped-up floor. You're in the powder room going to the bathroom, you could see your feet-
[laughter]
Rich (18:41):
Through the wall. The door is not really a necessary because you just see right through it anyway.
So, we were living with that for a while, and we were going to get ready to do the downstairs and not do the main level yet because it was ripped apart. That was my general game plan. And then New Year's Eve-
Ilana (18:58):
Wait, we had a baby, we had our second baby on-
Rich (19:01):
As the house was getting sided with the addition, we got the whole house resided — it needed to be sided anyway. So, we had it completely resided and got the addition sided.
Ilana (19:11):
We had our second baby on December 14th, and then two weeks later on New Year's Eve day, I'm upstairs putting our older one down for a nap and I hear him go, “Lan, come get the baby.” I'm like “Okay.”
Rich (19:29):
And I’m like frantic.
Ilana (19:30):
Yeah, I like run down, I get the baby. He's like, “Just go upstairs.” I'm like, “Okay.” And I'm sitting up there like what? Five minutes later, I hear a huge crash and I'm just like, “What is going on?” And our whole ceiling collapsed in the living room.
Rich (19:45):
In the main living room. This is the one area of our house that-
Taylor Davis (19:49):
Wait, you hadn't done anything to that one. If I'm thinking through the split level as I know a split level, that was probably one of the untouched spots, that's the one untouched spot.
Rich (19:58):
Exactly. So, we realized that it wasn't water damage or anything like that. I think because of the siding guys banging away on the side of the house, it shook the sheet rock loose. It was all the original sheet rock, and it was in an area with a pretty large span to begin with. And the glue dried out. It used to be nails, you guys know how it is.
Marilyn Moedinger (20:18):
This is why we screw drywall. Jews With Screws knows that (laughs).
Rich (20:24):
Yeah. And around this area, it's becoming really common that this is happening. I see on Facebook, other people complaining about the same thing. No water involved, it's just the sheet rock fell over time.
Taylor Davis (20:33):
Poorly installed. Well, I mean it has been close to 50 years, but (laughs)-
Marilyn Moedinger (20:38):
So, now you've got a flooded, torn apart first level.
Rich (20:44):
Lower level.
Marilyn Moedinger (20:45):
A living room that has no ceiling and is now completely covered in 50-year-old drywall dust. And now, you're like I guess we're renovating the house.
Ilana (20:54):
Yep (chuckles).
Rich (20:55):
Yeah. This is one of the beautiful things about my brother is … this was two o'clock in the afternoon on New Year's Eve and the heat, just, escaped out of the house. My thermostat's in that room and it's immediately ice cold.
I call him in a panic and he's like, “Alright, it's still two o'clock, I'm going to run the Lowe's and I'm going to get foam board. Patch up whatever you can and I'm going to run over with the foam board because it's going to be too much to put sheet rock back up, and we're just going to put the foam board back up.”
So, he did that. He got over, we managed to get most of the insulation back up there because it was just bad insulation, not as good as it should be, but good enough. And put the foam board up, and I used the HVAC tape to seal up the seams. And we lived like that until September of 2024.
Ilana (21:39):
Our friends would come over and I'm like, “Well, don't look up, just don't look up.” The blue foam board ceiling with lions on it.
[Laughter]
Rich (21:49):
If you guys want pictures, we can send you pictures.
Taylor Davis (21:51):
That's hilarious.
Marilyn Moedinger (21:52):
That’s funny (laughs). It's amazing.
Ilana (21:54):
But the great part too, I will say this, our kids were so little, I didn't care what they did. Pick a marker, you could write on the walls if you want, I don't even care.
Rich (22:06):
Yeah. Now, we're back at our house and it's beautiful, we love it. And we're like, “Don't touch that, don't touch that.”
[Laughter]
Taylor Davis (22:12):
I want to jump in because I want to applaud you. I lived in northern New Jersey and in New York for 14 years all in. And the split level is a design conundrum. For most people, I mean, my sister-in-law lived in there … I mean, we've been through lots of split levels. And Bergen County, there were a lot of split levels in Bergen County where we were.
And not many folks have the creativity to sort of think outside the box a little bit. A lot of them get renovated kind of as they are, and you don't see any kind of opportunity. And there is some beauty to the split levels’ kind of efficiency and the way it uses space. So, the fact that y'all opted to go out over the garage and expand really that footprint, but in a way that maintained kind of the generosity that the split level affords, I think is really interesting. So, I want to give you kudos for thinking outside the box a little bit.
Ilana (23:04):
Well, thank you. And I was going to say we haven't even talked about what we did to the split-level area. We totally changed that too.
Taylor Davis (23:12):
I'm dying to hear, because that's one of those things that … people don't buy split levels because they think that they're unworkable, that you can't live in them, that they don't fit modern life, et cetera, et cetera. And actually, there's a lot you can do with it.
Rich (23:28):
I like it. I like it a lot. You're right, they were built with a different mindset.
Ilana (23:32):
Yes, very different. And especially for me, I was having such a hard time being stuck in that kitchen where I couldn't see anything else. I couldn't see the kids, I was constantly trying to do a dish and then running out.
I still vividly remember my kid, I gave him Play-Doh because I thought Play-Doh will keep him occupied for a while, and then all of a sudden, I go in there, he ate a whole ball of it and I had to scrape it out of his mouth because for one second, I didn't see him.
There used to be this huge wall that spanned — essentially where we are sitting right now, there was a huge wall, and I just said that wall has to go, it has to go. And actually, that architect that helped us upstairs did kind of like look up in the ceiling and he's like, “I'm pretty sure you guys are going to be okay, I don't think this is a load bearing wall.” And it wasn't. So, I don't know if I'm fast forwarding too much, but-
Marilyn Moedinger (24:27):
No, this is good stuff.
Ilana (24:29):
We got rid of the whole middle wall. We closed up, so right behind us, this used to be the second set of steps down to that lower level.
Rich (24:38):
The split level typically has that like circular-
Ilana (24:42):
Yeah. So, we closed that up, and now we have a full proper dining area next to our kitchen with a huge island, and opens up into our family area. So, now, I can literally be at the sink and cook dinner, and everybody's just here with me.
Marilyn Moedinger (25:01):
I think that's awesome. One of the key things that you said there is that you were in the space for a while, and that's what told you that that wall had to come out.
So, I'm curious, what other insights did you learn by living in the house that helped you during the renovation? That helped you know what to do?
Rich (25:18):
The interesting one to think about was that other staircase that we got rid of. I was a little hesitant at first because I've been in a lot of split levels growing up, just like, I'm familiar with them. And it's the typical design and it kind of gives it what a split level is, and I was really hesitant to remove it because I felt like it was going to really ruin the flow of the house.
But the entire time we lived here, we had one very young child and then a second very young child. We had the thing gated off the entire time anyway.
Ilana (25:50):
We never used it.
Rich (25:51):
We never used it. And we said, you know what, okay, here we are-
Ilana (25:54):
We don’t need it.
Rich (25:55):
We don't need it. We've been up and down this area the whole time in this other set of steps and it's perfectly fine. This is not a massive house. Now, with the addition, it's not even 2100 square feet, it's just about that.
So, it's like you can get up and down with that one set of steps perfectly fine and it just makes the flow of this room so much better.
Ilana (26:12):
Yeah. And we knew like okay, the one thing we might run into by closing off this set of steps is it's going to be that much harder to get to the backyard because you have to go down these steps and then down to the slider in the bottom area. But we decided to add a slider here in the kitchen.
So, we'll put steps there so you could go right out the kitchen to the backyard. So, we kind of fixed that anyway.
Rich (26:38):
Made a new set of steps.
Marilyn Moedinger (26:40):
That's awesome. It's like living in this space as an experiment to tell you … I love that. The gated off thing and you're like actually, this tells us we don't need this. It's so smart. It's smart to take the advice the house is giving you.
Ilana (26:52):
True.
Marilyn Moedinger (26:53):
You're listening.
[Laughter]
Ilana (26:55):
I don't think I realized it at the time, but-
Marilyn Moedinger (26:58):
Knowing everything you know now, I mean you've got quite a story with lots of chapters. Would you offer advice to someone who's about ready to start on this process?
Rich (27:10):
I mean, if you don't have the time and the know-how, hire professionals.
Taylor Davis (27:14):
There's our next sound bite.
[Laughter]
Rich (27:18):
It's a lot to juggle. Like I said, I played GC for essentially both projects and it drags on a lot longer. The second stage when we renovated the downstairs, I was hoping it would be four to six months, it ended up being eight months. And a lot of it, I don't even think it was my fault necessarily, but it's this person gets delayed and then it just stacks.
So, our insulation guy kind of pushed us back three weeks and you can’t do anything else until all the utilities are done, and you can't do anything until the insulation's in. And then we got to the point where we needed flooring, and the flooring guy, or the flooring material was three weeks delayed.
And then I ended up painting just because I needed something to do. But we repainted anyway because everything got ruined by the time you do the trim and all that kind of stuff. So, it's just those types of things that the contractor’s going to be much more aware of and work through much better or have alternate crews that can come and do things-
Ilana (28:18):
Well, and you're working a job all day, this is not your job. So, you don't have the time all day to be calling all these people and checking up and making sure … I'm over here, did you call this person? What do we have to pick out now? What are we doing now? It took, yes, a definite toll. We're still together, so that's great.
Marilyn Moedinger (28:41):
Good job guys.
[Chuckles]
Ilana (28:43):
But it was hard. I mean we also had to rely very much on our family. We lived with his mom throughout the entire renovation. Thankfully, that was-
Rich (28:54):
The second part of the renovation. We lived here during the addition.
Ilana (28:57):
But during the second part, yeah, because we knew we were ripping everything out. And then my parents were so helpful. Like you were saying, what advice would you give to someone else? If you're going to do this, you need help. If you have kids, you just need to be able to rely on people to help you with certain things.
Rich (29:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
Marilyn Moedinger (29:19):
Well, something you said in there, it's another job. There's a reason why that's another job (laughs).
Rich (29:25):
Yeah. I know a lot of people don't think that GC does much, but they're doing a lot. I mean, there's a lot going on and there's a lot of moving pieces. And I build software for a living and I actually program, but I'm also the project manager of the development team.
So, I know how much effort's involved in just moving the checkers in the position, or the chess pieces in the position. There's a lot going on and you're dealing with different personalities and that kind of stuff.
So, you guys are more used to it than I am, but I'm calling Joe from the installation company and he's this old crotchety guy and I just want to be like, “Get over here with my installation.” I'm trying to be kind about it because I don't want them to just completely blow me off.
Ilana (30:06):
And then I said, “Give me the number and I'll be the bad guy.”
[Laughter]
Rich (30:10):
There were a couple times where we did like good cop, bad cop. I mean, I feel like most of these people try to get recommendations and stuff, but they want to do the work too. And in fact, I find that most contractors want to be done and out of here faster than they should be.
Sheri Scott (30:27):
Right, that's how they make money.
Rich (30:29):
And they're sloppier than they should be sometimes. So, they're not blowing you off just for the sake of blowing you off, they're busy.
Unfortunately, or maybe fortunate for you, it's like the world is flip flopped. There's not as many tradesmen and there's a lot more kind of paper pushers these days than there used to be. So, there's not as many people to come by and give you quotes and all that kind of stuff.
So, our project was an eight-month project, but if we hired a GC and had someone do it soup to nuts, it probably would've been three to four months, but it would've been a lot more expensive.
Sheri Scott (31:02):
I would be surprised because general contractors also have all of those problems (laughs). They have people that just don't show up no matter what their relationship is like because that is the business. If a drywaller wants to be busy all the time and he schedules his time at one project, if that gets pushed, then the next three get pushed. And it just seems like it never quite catches up.
So, I think that you being a solo person working with your network and you knew some of these people, probably helped a lot because other people that tried to do projects like this on their own, a lot of times the good subs won't even return their calls because they have enough work with their steady general contractors.
So, I think you did a great job. And it sounds like the timeline was really pretty good. It was probably painful for you guys as a young family being out of the home. But it sounds like you did a great job.
Rich (32:03):
Thank you.
Ilana (32:04):
Yeah, I will say, I have to give him credit. I do think that he really did do a great job. I anticipated a six-month mark, and we technically were in like seven and a half months. So, to be honest, that really wasn't that much more.
Rich (32:20):
We did a lot of work.
Ilana (32:21):
We did so much work. And also, there's something to be said for him doing the work. I go and I look at the tile in our powder room and I'm like, “He did that.” That's impressive. And every piece of tile, he did it, and that is so cool to me.
Rich (32:41):
My tile guy blew me off, so I had to.
[Laughter]
Ilana (32:45):
And I made him let me do a couple pieces of tile in the laundry area because I just wanted to try it. And of course, it was like herringbone and really difficult, but-
Rich (32:58):
She picked the toughest tile to possibly do.
[Laughter]
Marilyn Moedinger (33:01):
Just start off at the top, your first tile job, make it the toughest one.
Ilana (33:06):
But I'm really happy with how everything turned out. And I will say people will come in and be like, “Wow, this looks amazing, did you hire a designer?” And we're like, “No, we picked everything out. We did it together.” So, it's a big accomplishment.
Taylor Davis (33:21):
Well, it feels like yours. It's your home.
Marilyn Moedinger (33:25):
Yeah. And it's a testament to the communication that you guys obviously were able to have … I mean, no project can get done like this unless you're communicating well with each other and supporting each other.
So, you're talking about help with family and everything else, but you guys with each other too. In custom residential land, a lot of us joke that we're part-time or even sometimes full-time marriage counselors.
[Laughter]
That’s because there's a lot and we're like in it with them.
Rich (33:56):
I think our cabinet lady said that to us, that she deals with this a lot, with a lot of couples, it's tough.
Ilana (34:01):
But Rich did a good job. He made a … what did we make? We made like an Excel spreadsheet of all our finishes. Then he separated it by light fixtures, faucet, grout, just so that we could keep track of it. Was it bought, was it not bought?
And then also as I saved things that I liked on the internet, I could put the link in there and then he could look at it and tell me if he liked it or if he didn't like it, not that it really mattered. But-
[Laughter]
Rich (34:33):
Well, I was more like do I like the price?
Marilyn Moedinger (34:37):
That matters.
Rich (34:39):
It can get crazy seeing some of the prices for things and you just like … that's something else too, a piece of advice. When you're doing these renovations, and we didn't know this and we kind of unfortunately are still dealing with it, is that have a furniture budget because we got all the way done and then it's like, “Wait, we're going to stick all our old furniture back in this house?”
[Laughter]
Ilana (35:02):
But to what Marilyn was saying earlier about letting the house help you learn what you need, I also said, I don't think it's the worst thing because again, our kids are young, we're going to be so worried about them messing up the furniture. Why don't we put what we have, see where we like it, where does it fit. Will I be able to fit like a sectional couch in here? Will it stick out too much?
So, we're kind of doing that right now. And I kind of like that because then in two years when we save up a little bit more money, I can really know what's going to fit good and what's going to look good, and what I really want.
Marilyn Moedinger (35:38):
I love that. I'm so glad you shared that. Because as we begin to wrap up our conversation, I think having the ability to see your project as a long-term investment of time, of resources of that kind of thing.
This isn't a flip, this is your home for at least long enough. Maybe not forever and ever, but it's at least your home for long enough that you can take the time to do that and have things that you really want instead of just feeling that pressure and buying whatever just to fill in the gaps, and then not really being happy and having wasted money.
Ilana (36:14):
For sure. For sure.
Rich (36:16):
And something else too, Marilyn, you tweet about this all the time, or you write about it at least a bunch, is pick what you want, don't try to just be like I just want the white cabinets with the quartz countertop that everybody has.
My brother renovated his house, so he bought a place at the same time as us, renovated big beautiful house neighborhood across from us. And he did it like very much more “Plain Jane,” and it's absolutely beautiful, don't get me wrong. But our house is much more eclectic.
He kind of makes fun of us because we have black cabinets, our siding is black. Our closet is black; it looks super cool. But he walked in while I was painting the coat closet, he's like, “Are you going to put any more black on this house?” And I was like, “I don’t know, maybe.” It looks cool, we like it.
So, our tile powder room is super interesting. The tile and the laundry room, super interesting. The paint color is interesting. You can see Chinchilla Sherwin Williams on our dining room wall there. That's a really valuable piece of advice. Don't make it look like the trend now because that's what the trend is.
Do what you want because like you say, next person's going to move into this house and do whatever they want with anyway. So, just enjoy it and do what you want to do.
Marilyn Moedinger (37:32):
Couldn't agree more.
Sheri Scott (37:34):
So, it sounds like you guys had a lot of surprises along the way to say the least and unplanned things. But now that you're in the house and you've lived there for a while, what is something about the finished project that you love? Something that you use or walk past or drive up to every day and you're just like, “Oh, thank goodness we did this.?
Ilana (37:58):
Do you want to go?
Rich (37:59):
You go first.
Ilana (38:01):
I just think it comes back to the flow again for me. Being able to stand at the island, do the dishes, have the kids just play here.
My older one, he's three and a half and he's really into golf also, now he's putting in the living room. He's like, “Mommy, watch me putt, watch me putt,” and I can stand here and I can still get things done while he's putting in the living room. And that's really all I had wanted from the beginning.
So, really, I would say like the flow of what we created in here now, for me.
Rich (38:40):
I love our bathroom, the addition, our master bathroom. We put the heated floors in there and I just-
Marilyn Moedinger (38:48):
So, good.
Taylor Davis (38:50):
That's the question we have with a lot of our clients, which is do they want heated floors? And I always have to say no one who has ever installed them has ever regretted it.
Marilyn Moedinger (38:57):
And they're not that expensive. They're not that expensive.
Rich (39:00):
They're not that expensive, right. They're so fantastic. And then I'll cheat and just add one more because this is a trend that I grew up with my whole life and I hated it. But we put the range hood over the oven and actually suck the air or the exhaust out, and I never had that before. I always had the microwave over the oven which I hated.
I like to make steak on a cast iron in the house and you always had the smoke detector going off. And now, I turn that on and it sucks it all out and it's fantastic. So, that's something else that if you have the opportunity to do it.
Marilyn Moedinger (39:34):
Well, thank you guys so much. This is, I feel like just a goldmine for our listeners in terms of (chuckles) good stories and lessons. So, thanks again and really glad you guys could join us today.
Ilana (39:49):
Thank you for having us. Let us know if you want any pictures, we're happy to send you pictures.
Marilyn Moedinger (39:56):
That could be fun. Alright, thanks guys.
Marilyn Moedinger (39:59):
Well, that was fun.
Taylor Davis (39:59):
That was fun.
Sheri Scott (40:00):
It was fun.
Marilyn Moedinger (40:01):
Yeah. I think that was one of our first ones where there was like this multi-phase adventure, where it started off one way and then there was a flood and the ceiling fell in and all this kind of stuff. So, I think that's really good for everyone to hear about.
Taylor Davis (40:15):
Which is really not that unusual when you think about how residential projects go. I mean, there's usually like — well, not usually. But a lot of times there's some like catalysts, the roof caves in, the ceiling falls, something floods, the range breaks, something that they don't want to have to replace, and it just … spirals is kind of the wrong word, but it makes you rethink, kind of-
Marilyn Moedinger (40:36):
Escalates.
Taylor Davis (40:37):
Okay, it escalates. If I'm going to do this, why don't we think about X, Y, and Z? And so, I don't think it's that unusual.
I'm sort of stuck on the creativity with the split level because I do think that for a lot of people who live in suburban neighborhoods, the split level can be kind of this, you either love it or hate it scenario, and lots of people are so enthusiastic about it that you can't change it, it's an anathema, this is what it is.
But I love the fact that they were really creative about thinking about that space because it is structured in such a way to kind of limit some of the things you can do.
Marilyn Moedinger (41:14):
Well, and one of the things that they said kind of quickly, so I wanted to make sure we highlighted it about the split levels, is that the architect that they work with, I think Rich said that he's a guy who knows these types of houses really well.
So, because of working in Boston, I know triple-deckers really, really well, and I can look at it from down the street and I know how it's framed and I know where the bearing walls are, and I know where the problems are going to be.
And having someone with that deep knowledge, whether it's an architect or a contractor, but someone who really understands that house type in that area, boy, is that worth something. And that's what he was saying about the architect there.
I also liked at the beginning of the story when they were talking about, when they were looking for something to buy. They knew they wanted a fixer-upper, and they were really buying the neighborhood, not the house.
So, I think that's really important for people to remember. You aren't necessarily going to find the perfect house, but you can renovate a house and make it way better, but you can't change the neighborhood (laughs) as easily.
Sheri Scott (42:17):
And they had his brother who they have a lot of trust in and he's a professional. So, for him to walk through the house with them and say, “Oh, buy this house, you can do a lot with it. I can see a lot that we can do.” So, that makes a difference too, to have that kind of professional backup to make that leap on a house that you're like, “I don't really want to live here.”
Marilyn Moedinger (42:41):
Yeah. And thinking about what your network is, I'm thinking about … a lot of times people come to me and they say, “We just don't have anyone in our world who can help us make these decisions or who understands construction or understands design or knows what the next step is.” And that's of course, part of the reason why we're doing this podcast, is to help spread that knowledge.
But also, you might be surprised, I mean, not everyone has a brother who's a master plumber who flips houses. So, that feels like a secret unlock. But I do think that just in your world, you probably have someone who is good at this kind of stuff and can help navigate some of that with you.
But I mean, they said a couple times, of course, obviously, we're excited about them pointing everyone in the direction of the professionals. And that doesn't always mean architect, but it does mean somebody that knows what's going on.
Taylor Davis (43:29):
And I like too, Marilyn, that you pulled from the conversation about letting the house inform the design and understanding kind of living in … I mean, I couldn't do it for all of it, but living in it for a little while to help them understand kind of what worked and what didn't and how they were going to actually use it.
There's a lot of pressure when people buy a fixer-upper to fix it up immediately. And sometimes, it may need to be camped down in for a little while to understand what the house needs and what you need in the house. And those two things will vary from family to family and from person to person and owner to owner, and sort of giving a little breathing space and time for that I think is really helpful.
Marilyn Moedinger (44:13):
Yes, I agree. And I was excited that they did the demo and kind of we're in the space. I also think that Rich's comment about the contractor wants to get out of there sometimes a little too quickly. I think that's really key. Everyone in a project is always like, “When's it going to be done? When's it going to be done? I want to be in by Thanksgiving, I want to be in by Thanksgiving.”
And that can lead to some shortsighted decision-making and some okay, maybe that “Thanksgiving gets ruined,” because the house is still a mess and you're eating off of paper plates or whatever because the project took an extra three weeks.
But you're going to be in that house for the next 15, 20 years, are you ever going to remember? That's going to be a funny story you tell. Listen to all their stories now, they were not laughing about those stories when those stories happened (laughs).
Sheri Scott (45:03):
Right, that's a good thing to bring up, for sure.
I thought it was interesting how they made the things work between them, like making a spreadsheet of all of the finishes, which we have all done for our clients, and I don't know how they found the time. A lot of my clients don't have the time to do that kind of work. But they found the time to not only do the construction but to manage it, and to make some systems out of it.
Marilyn Moedinger (45:36):
Obviously, they saved money by doing a lot of that themselves, for sure. I mean, they even said. But you pay in some way, and they paid in time and effort. I think some people think that they can just do it because all it is, is making a few phone calls and kind of checking on things. No, it is a grind.
Sheri Scott (45:57):
It’s a job.
Marilyn Moedinger (45:58):
It's a whole job; it's like three jobs (laughs). So, I think their sort of dedication to that and understanding that meant that they were able to save money, but they understood what they were trading for it, and that doesn't work for everyone. And that's okay, that's why we're doing this, different approaches.
It was fun too that while they were going through the process that he was actually making YouTube channel. So, I mean, we talked about it a little bit in there but just want to make sure everyone heard, Jews With Screws YouTube channel. I love that.
So, there was also another layer of sort of understanding the project and understanding the story of the project, that actually makes sense and helps the project along. And we're going to link to it in the show notes. So, y'all should check it out because it's fun.
Sheri Scott (46:46):
Thanks for joining us on Home: The Second Story. If you'd like to come on the show and share your story, email us at admin@htsspodcast.com. We'd love to have you as a guest. For more inspiring homeowner stories and tips, we'll see you next time.
[Music Playing]
Voiceover (47:05):
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