Homeowner Beth joins us with her designer Linda to talk about a kitchen renovation that turned out beautifully, even though the process was far more difficult than expected. Beth had lived in her Lancaster, Pennsylvania home for 29 years and had wanted to remove the wall between her small kitchen and dining room for a long time. Once her husband agreed, she and Linda began interviewing builders. Beth chose the builder who seemed calm, reasonable, and willing to listen. The initial pricing was also lower than the other quotes.
Problems started once design began. Beth believed the builder would provide design support, but the person presented as the designer did not provide the comprehensive kitchen design Beth expected. Beth and Linda arrived with mood boards, colors, and clear ideas, but felt those preferences were largely ignored. The proposed layout prioritized symmetry instead of the functionality Beth wanted. She and Linda eventually realized they would need to design much of the kitchen themselves.
Budgeting added another layer of stress. The final number jumped about $40,000 above the original estimate before Beth had even made many selections. She also kept hearing that items she had requested from the beginning, including finishes without stainless steel, could be upgrades. The lack of clear allowances and coordination made it difficult to understand what was included and where different selections needed to be made.
One bright spot was the appliance salesperson. He listened, understood Beth's budget, and helped her find the creamy white appliances and double ovens she wanted without exceeding the appliance allowance. That experience showed what the rest of the process could have been. Clear communication, a defined budget, and someone willing to work through alternatives made the experience enjoyable.
Construction moved quickly and was completed on schedule, but Beth still felt she became the general contractor. She and her husband had to coordinate trades, solve problems, track installations, and make sure decisions were implemented. At one point, Beth learned that an appliance installation shown on the project schedule had never actually been arranged!
Fortunately, the kitchen itself is now everything Beth wanted. It includes a bar displaying her collection of 1950s and 1960s glassware, gold details, a coffee bar, a banquette, wallpaper, double ovens, and a layout built around how she actually cooks and lives. The result feels personal, glamorous, and highly functional.
Our biggest takeaway is that homeowners need to understand exactly what “design included” means. A builder arranging appointments with cabinet, appliance, and plumbing vendors is not the same as having someone manage the entire design. A good architect or designer looks across the whole project, coordinates selections, balances the budget, and makes sure individual decisions work together. Beth ultimately got the kitchen she wanted because she stayed involved, stood her ground, and had Linda beside her throughout the process. But when firends ask her who did her kitchen, she won't share the name. While the end result was the kitchen of her dreams, she wouldn't want anyone else to go through the same trials and tribulations of that process.
(00:00) Intro
(00:28) Beth's Lancaster Kitchen Renovation
(06:54) The Promised Designer
(07:27) Mood Boards and Design Ideas Get Ignored
(09:37) Linda Steps Into the Design Role
(11:09) Custom Builder vs. Custom Kitchen
(11:35) The Budget Jumps by $40,000
(16:15) Choosing Fixtures, Sinks, and Appliances
(19:00) The One Vendor Who Made the Process Fun
(20:35) Fighting to Keep the Double Ovens
(23:08) Beth Becomes the General Contractor
(24:06) Being a Woman on the Job Site
(26:02) Making Every Selection Before Construction
(28:58) Why the Project Succeeded Anyway
(31:14) What Beth Would Tell Other Homeowners
(33:28) The Bandwidth Required for Renovation
(34:51) Beth's Favorite Kitchen Details
(37:09) Marilyn and Sheri Debrief
(38:35) Why “Design Included” Can Be a Red Flag
(40:08) The Problem With Disconnected Showroom Decisions
(41:49) Why the Renovation Process Should Have Been Fun
(43:07) Why Homeowners Need to Stand Their Ground
(44:50) Would an Architect Have Cost More?
(45:30) Closing Thoughts
Speakers: Marilyn Moedinger, Sheri Scott, Beth & Linda
Marilyn Moedinger (00:00):
Hi, and welcome to Home: The Second Story. We're two architects sharing real conversations with homeowners who've taken on custom home or renovation projects. I'm Marilyn Moedinger of Runcible Studios in Boston, Massachusetts and Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Sheri Scott (00:14):
And I am Sheri Scott of Springhouse Architects in Cincinnati, Ohio. And today, we are joined by both Beth and Linda, and they're in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Welcome, ladies.
Linda (00:27):
Thank you.
Sheri Scott (00:28):
So, just to get the lay of the land, we like to ask five just quick questions to see kind of what project we're talking about. So, where is your project located?
Beth (00:39):
In my kitchen.It's my kitchen.
Sheri Scott (00:42):
(Laughs) Okay, in Pennsylvania, right?
Beth (00:44):
In Pennsylvania.
Sheri Scott (00:48):
Was it an addition or full renovation? What was the project?
Beth (00:51):
It was a full renovation.
Sheri Scott (00:54):
When did you start your project and when was it completed?
Beth (00:59):
I think April 1st, 2025, and it was completed in July 2025.
Sheri Scott (01:05):
Okay, that seems like they progressed really nicely. Nice.
Linda (01:11):
When you say getting done (with the) project, do you mean when she started talking to people or when they started-
Marilyn Moedinger (01:19):
However you want to describe it.
Sheri Scott (01:20):
Well, that's a good question.
Beth (01:22):
That's when they started.
Sheri Scott (01:23):
So, construction started in April.
Linda (01:25):
They tore a wall down.
Beth (01:27):
I started the conversation probably in October.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:30):
The year before. Yeah, 2024.
Linda (01:32):
We were trying to find a builder.
Sheri Scott (01:34):
So, Beth, you're the homeowner and Linda, you're the designer.
Linda (01:39):
Oh, my goodness, self-proclaimed designer.I work for Beth, and yeah, my former career was in painting and design. So, I was open to helping her in this process. And as she said, it was originally my idea, and her husband liked it, and she was able to move forward.
Sheri Scott (02:07):
Nice, nice.
Linda (02:08):
She needed an update, a redo.
Sheri Scott (02:10):
Beth, did you have anyone else involved as a design team?
Beth (02:15):
No.
Marilyn Moedinger (02:16):
But you yourself had plenty of opinions though, right?
Beth (02:19):
No, no, no. Linda and I did it together. And that's part of the story is the builders said that they would have design help and they did not.
Marilyn Moedinger (02:28):
Oh, well, I think we should dive in.
Beth (02:32):
Part of the story is like Linda and I truly designed the whole kitchen.
Marilyn Moedinger (02:34):
Yeah. Because I think that's part of the reason when you guys told me the story casually when we were talking, I said, "Oh my gosh, our listeners need to hear about this."So, we're going to start off with our big question that we always start off with, which is knowing what you know now, what would you do differently?
Beth (02:53):
I think that's so hard because my kitchen's perfect.
[Laughter]
Sheri Scott (02:56):
Oh, that's good. That's a good ending.
Beth (02:58):
It was uncomfortable and it was a bad experience. But did it have to be bad for it to turn out this well? I don't know,I don't know. But it's truly almost perfect.
Marilyn Moedinger (03:12):
So, the kitchen ended up perfect, which is great. You were mentioning that the process didn't go so well. So, tell us a little bit about do you think there was anything that you would do differently about the process, or the people you worked with or how that all happened?
Beth (03:28):
I just want to tell the quick story is that I've lived there for 29 years. I made a small kitchen and a dining room, traditional 1950s house. And so, Linda, I told her forever, I want to open it up and my husband's traditional and he's Greek and Italian. And he's like, "No, we will never do that."
And so, Linda was over one night and she's like, "Tony, do you ever sit in the dining room?" He was like, "Not really." And she's like, "You have all that square footage you're not using. That's silly. You should take down this wall."And then he's like, "Wow, Linda, I think you may be right." I'm like, "Oh, my God. Thank you, Linda."
[Laughter]
It was more or less like October and then we started calling builders and stuff. But it truly was him hearing it … well, really, whatever I want now done, I just have her tell him. He says, "Okay."
Marilyn Moedinger (04:21):
That's kind of the whole premise of this podcast. Is like if Sheri and I tell people things, they don't really listen. But if somebody else tells them that they trust, there's something to that about having someone who's different than the voices you usually hear telling you ideas.
Beth (04:40):
And she has a really good design eye. He really trusts any color … like anything that she's ever picked for us in the past, he's always really liked.So, he really does trust her and her opinions and her sensibilities when it comes to not necessarily building, but rearranging spaces in a way that makes sense. He trusts her opinion.
Marilyn Moedinger (05:00):
So, you started talking to builders first, it sounds like. And it sounds like the builders you were talking to claim to have a design team, but they didn't.
Beth (05:11):
Right. We interviewed three and they all came to the home, and they were all very different, and I actually went with the one that seemed less salesy and more calm.My husband's a naysayer, as you can tell, 29 years, so I really wanted to go with the builder who wouldn’t put up roadblocks.
Might be like, "Oh, we could work around this, or that would be possible, but it's going to be ten more grand," or that they would be very sensible in explaining everything. So, I think that's why I went with the third one that I chose just because he sounded reasonable and he listened to me.
Marilyn Moedinger (05:55):
That's huge.
Beth (05:57):
And all the prices came in about the same, but his came in just a tad lower than everybody else's.
Sheri Scott (06:03):
So, Beth, I'm curious, when you interviewed those three builders, did you have plans? I know you knew you were going to take down the wall but was everything designed? Were they actually bidding on a project or just giving you their opinion of cost?How did that go?
Beth (06:20):
Yeah, they were giving us a ballpark because there was no set design. So, we kind of figured out like we thought this could work. And there's a lot of windows and doors, so there wasn't a lot of availability to place appliances, so we were kind of on a constraint there.
However, we did have a rough design, and then they were going to take that design and draw up the actual plans, but we kind of came to the table with an idea.
Sheri Scott (06:54):
Did you meet with their designer or did they do it in-house? How did that turn out?
Beth (06:59):
None of them would do the design until we paid them and then they said you would get to keep your design, and it was about a grand. So, we felt most comfortable with the one that we went with.And so, they said they had a designer, but we couldn't really put a pin in that, and then it was actually with the cabinet sales company. So, she was not a designer.
Linda (07:27):
It was interesting because we were prepared. Beth has a definite design style and the things she likes, and so we were prepared with photos and colors-
Beth (07:44):
Idea boards.
Linda (07:45):
Idea board, thinking this is going to really help her when she does her design. She didn't want to see any of it.She came in, she didn't take any measurements, it was kind of disappointing, the process, because then you're left wondering how is she going to come up with a design that represents Beth's style if she didn't take the time to really look at the things that she likes and wants.
Marilyn Moedinger (08:16):
And it sounds like it was a cabinet person and not a designer for the whole … so, this happens a lot where we hear folks, the builder sends them to the cabinet place, and the cabinets are but one of many, many things that you need to decide in a kitchen. So, the cabinet designer is not a kitchen designer and there's actually a different distinction, a different professional distinction for professionals who are kitchen and bath designers.
Beth (08:47):
Our original kitchen was designed, you could tell it was designed, because every nook and cranny was used, and it's a third of the space that we presently have. And it was by Armstrong or something back in ‘82 but it was amazing. Every place had a use.
And so, I was like, "Oh my goodness, I have two-thirds more space."I was so excited to hear what somebody could do with this space, because I was just used to this old kitchen that I had was so well designed. I just refaced it a couple times because there was no reason … you couldn't economize any of the space more than you had.
So, that was probably my first major disappointment, is that they didn't come with any really cool solutions to a blank slate. I mean, how is that?
Marilyn Moedinger (09:37):
So, is it at that point, Linda, that you kind of took a more of a design role?
Linda (09:43):
I went with Beth to see the initial design in the space where they have all the cabinetry, and it was clear that it wasn't going to work. They were very into symmetry, and they wanted everything to be symmetrical.
She even said that. And the space really didn't lend itself if you wanted functionality. They had a lot of things designed that weren't functional.They looked great because of symmetry, but as far as function and aesthetics, yeah, they were two different things.
Beth (10:26):
And they also sent me to a distributor that is … and Sheri, I don't know if you understand this, but it's very Lancaster County.
Sheri Scott (10:33):
(Laughs) I do not understand that.
Marilyn Moedinger (10:38):
I do.
[Laughter]
Beth (10:39):
So, it was really conservative and country almost and I was like, "You didn't read any of my mood boards." They only have one style of cabinet, and I tried to pick the most sleek door to make it look a little mid-century, but that was the biggest disappointment. We were like, "Where are all the cabinet types?" And they're like, "Oh, here, but you can change the door." I'm like, "Well, that isn't really …" So, there was no design involved.
Linda (11:09):
I think we assumed custom builder means custom kitchen, and it wasn't that at all.We got to the place and they were stock cabinetry. So, she's trying to make this design based on what they already have available. So, that made it trickier like when we realized that we're like, "Oh, okay, sorry."
Beth (11:35):
And just on the outside, and I won't give you the specifics — but everyone quoted the job around the same price. And so, the guy who quoted me, it was like $10,000 less than all the others, and then when we signed, it was 40 grand more.
Marilyn Moedinger (11:53):
Whoa. Not cool. Not cool.
Beth (11:58):
And I had not picked anything yet.
Marilyn Moedinger (11:59):
Wow, what was his justification?
Beth (12:02):
The one thing, because it's an older house, we had to take out the — we have baseboard heat, hot water, and we had to move to a heated floor system. That was like $10,000.You know what I mean? So, right away, he blew my budget. So, when we talked to the designer at the store, she's like, "Oh, well, that's going to be an upgrade. That's going to be a problem."
And then that's when I started to melt down and be like, "It can't possibly be an upgrade because it's already $40,000 more than what you said it was going to be, and wouldn't that include this within that design?"And then that's when it was like, "Oh no, we've got to keep her calm." So, anyway, it was really stressful.
Linda (12:44):
Because of that piece and then picking the countertops, like same thing where what she wanted, they kept saying, "Well, that's the highest end." It ended up that she was able to afford that in her budget, but we didn't know that for a while and it was very-
Beth (13:03):
And she was surly.
Linda (13:05):
Stressful.
Marilyn Moedinger (13:05):
Surly.
Beth (13:06):
Just surly.
Marilyn Moedinger (13:06):
That's not a good quality to have if you're working with people in design and retail sales.
Beth (13:15):
I was really looking forward to this for so many decades and so, it wasn't fun at all.
Linda (13:21):
The other thing with her is she often made it about herself and her kitchen instead of realizing this is all about Beth right now and Beth's kitchen, and listening to what Beth wants. Not at all about what she would like in her kitchen or what she did. Because everybody wants something different in their house, so you have to figure out what does that person really want, and it wasn't happening.
Marilyn Moedinger (13:53):
And I think there are certain things in a kitchen that I know when Sheri and I are designing kitchens, there are certain rules of thumb that you want to follow as much as you can. So, distances between appliances or distances between island and counters and things like that, but there's so much room to customize things.
And, I'll say this too that custom builder doesn't mean custom kitchen. I mean, I want to underline that like 12 times for our listeners because unless you're going into it with that knowledge that it might or might not be custom, depending on what they've priced — and I'll say this too, for everyone listening, like we do full custom kitchens, like fully custom.
Our cabinet guys can cut things half an inch this way or three quarters an inch that way, it doesn't matter. It can be whatever size. And we've priced it, it's actually not that much more than a semi-custom.
Beth (14:53):
And that's what it was, the semi-custom.
Sheri Scott (14:55):
Yep. We do a lot of semi-custom work in our kitchens, and there is a lot of manipulation you can do within that. But you have to know the system, and you have to be able to work with a designer that knows their own cabinet line.Like me, as the architect, I can't learn their entire cabinet line to come up with the best kitchen in a semi-custom layout.
So, the fact that they weren't working with you and understanding what they could do to make it semi-custom — use your regular box cabinets that's fine but let's work through some kind of magic here. Like let's get some heart into it.
Beth (15:36):
We also were very specific. Like functionality is more important than form. Well, I want it to be beautiful.I cook, I'm busy. I own my own business.Like I wanted it to serve me 100%, so I was like, "How are they going to figure that out? It'd be so exciting to have this drawer here and that drawer there, and I'll turn around and I'll cook and then I'll do a dish."
And so, I was really looking for someone to give me some insight on functionality of it because I don't have an architectural mind or a design mind. I'm a numbers girl, so I was so excited to learn more about it and there was nothing.So, it was self-taught, and then Linda was a huge aid.
Marilyn Moedinger (16:15):
So, after you made it through the design "process" with the cabinet folks, then you still had to pick out your other things: your counters, your fixtures, your appliances. How did that work?
Beth (16:30):
Well, they sent up all these appointments with all these different vendors, but then like they'd sent me some ideas. So, when we went to go pick out the spigot, we thought we were picking out the sink and the spigot. So, I had five criteria when I talked to every builder.I wanted no stainless steel or some of them. I wanted functionality over form.
Linda (16:53):
You wanted a disposal.
Beth (16:55):
I wanted a button garbage disposal.
Marilyn Moedinger (16:58):
These are all very reasonable by the way.
Sheri Scott (17:00):
Very reasonable.
[Laughter]
Beth (17:01):
Anyway, those were probably the ones I can most remember, but those were … oh, I wanted a double oven.
Linda (17:07):
Maybe a trash drawer.
Beth (17:08):
And a trash drawer. So, like it was-
Marilyn Moedinger (17:10):
Beth, this is fine. This is great. We can do this.
Beth (17:13):
This is a pretty big room, I'm telling you. But the number one thing was no stainless steel. So, they gave me the spigots, and they were only stainless steel. And then the sinks were only stainless steel and I'm like, "No, I'm picking something else because I told him before he quoted me." So, then that was a whole thing that he's like, "Well, no, but everything that you've showed me wasn't what I requested." And that was before the price went up 40 grand.
So, anyhow, we ended up then … we weren't really told where things were sourced. So, the place that sold the cabinets also sold countertops, but also, they sourced the sink. Nobody gave us this flow chart of who we're choosing it from, and I didn't know what my price criteria was, and then my price had already been risen, so we didn't know.It can't go up any more than this. I kept telling everybody I cannot spend more than ... because you already put me over my budget.
Sheri Scott (18:07):
At the time that you got the budget that was 40 grand over, was that all itemized? So, then did he tell you, "Well, I had $1,000 in there for a sink. So, if you go over that allowance, then you're going to be over."Did you get anything itemized like that?
Beth (18:26):
Not that specifically. He just said, he did a guesstimate, and then the bids came in from the vendors and they were all higher, and then the floor was added. So, then when he did send me the stuff for the sinks, there was a price range on it.And on those two instances, he did eat the upgrade for the sink and the faucet and the thing, and they were gold and they were not silver or stainless.
Sheri Scott (18:52):
Because you stood your ground. I mean, it sounds like you had to do so much work to just get what you had asked for in the first place.
Beth (19:00):
After we got the whole design, we signed on … the first place that Linda and I went was the appliance store and this kid was great. And I didn't want stainless. The first one was like $10,000 over budget. And I'm like, "It's more than I want." Because I'd already gotten the other bit was over.He was like, "Oh Beth, we can do it. Let's try it again."
And we went back and we did it.And I got creamy weight appliances and there was no stainless steel. And he came in below $25,000. I was like, "Perfect."That's what I thought the process was going to be like, "Alright, let's work out." He said, "This is a generous budget. You're going to be fine."
But you don't know when you're picking out this fantastic stove top.You know what I mean? So, he was an amazing … I kept telling him all through the project, "You're the only person who made this project fun."
Sheri Scott (19:52):
Sounds like he's the only one that listened to you.
Linda (19:57):
He was. Yeah, great listener.
Beth (19:59):
And communicator.
Marilyn Moedinger (20:01):
So, you got a taste of what the project should be, or the design process should be, which is here's a clear number, here's what we're working towards.Oh, we had some fun, we picked out some things, we’re a bit above that, let's work together to get back to that.I mean, Sheri, that's what we do day in and day out.
Sheri Scott (20:21):
Exactly. Yeah.
Marilyn Moedinger (20:22):
Because there's no point to forcing someone to spend more money if they don't want to.
Sheri Scott (20:27):
And you don't have to. There are so many options.
Marilyn Moedinger (20:28):
You don't have to.And you can also talk through the options and see what makes sense.
Beth (20:35):
I can't tell you how many times I almost gave up my double oven and Linda and Tony are like, "Don't do it. We'll figure it out."I'm like, "I can't. They're beating me down. I'm not going to have double ovens,I know it, because I like to cook and bake." So, anyway, we got the double ovens, and they're probably my best appliance.
Marilyn Moedinger (20:52):
And you should not back down about these things. One thing that we hear over and over and over from these interviews is when we ask people, "What did they learn through the process?" And a lot of people will say, "Don't back down, stick to your guns about the things that matter to you," because it may be uncomfortable in those moments and it may be difficult through that process.But now, you're in your kitchen for the next however long and you've got the double oven.
Every time, if you wouldn't have stood your ground on that or the faucet or whatever … so I just also want to say the process should not be a constant needing to stand your ground on stuff, like it shouldn't be like that.
Beth (21:32):
And the whole thing is.
Marilyn Moedinger (21:34):
So, then construction.So, you got through all that, so now it's time for construction. It sounds like the construction happened fairly quickly.
Beth (21:42):
So, that was the one thing that is positive. They finished it on their timeline. We were so excited, like, okay, we've all made decisions, we figured it out. We sourced it with stuff that Linda and I felt fit my personality and my sensibilities. And then they ripped everything out and they demolished our basement (laughs).So, it was like there was dirt everywhere and they didn't cover anything.
And because then they had to replace stuff underneath the one side of the basement because they were doing the heated floors, like it actually looked like a hurricane went through. And it was on the brochure.I took a picture of the brochure, and I sent it to the builder. And I was like this is the third point on your thing, is that you have a clean environment. You just broke your third advertisement.Like what are you doing?
It was appalling. My husband's so fussy. He told the guy, and the guy was really neat and meticulous.We are really fussy people and it's like, "Oh, we're the right people for you."
Sheri Scott (22:46):
Did you live in the home during construction?
Beth (22:48):
Yes. We thought we were going to be able to set up a little kitchen in the basement, but we couldn't because the basement was demolished. So, I lived in my living room and used a microwave, but it was only what? Six weeks.
Marilyn Moedinger (23:02):
Yeah, six weeks. You can tough it out.
Sheri Scott (23:03):
So, they did have some good points.
Beth (23:08):
No, no, no. They got it done in a timely manner.But I was definitely the general contractor.
Sheri Scott (23:12):
Say more about that (laughs).
Beth (23:15):
Like he did not manage it well. And Tony had to talk to the heating people; there was issues there. The electricians did an amazing job. They were very communicative.But then you have people in your house and they're all mad at you. He didn't run interference; his team was mad at us because they made a mess and they had to come back clean up the mess. So, there was a lot of bad feelings amongst the workers and then us.
Linda (23:45):
Wasn't this one of his first job sites, the guy in charge? He was young.
Beth (23:53):
He was young. And I don't know if this is the first time (or) he took the lead, but they said they put him on it because he's so particular.And I said, “At what point will he start being particular?”
[Laughter]
Sheri Scott (24:04):
Good question.
Beth (24:06):
And then it's also weird being a woman dealing with a men, so I was having Tony deal with them because he's pretty good at that, but it's still very sexist. And I run my own company, I'm much more advanced than Tony. However, he's a laborer and he could communicate, but it was shocking. There's no other word for the process other than there was so much discord.
Marilyn Moedinger (24:37):
Well, it's disappointing to hear in 2026 that it's still going that way. I mean, I have to say, certainly after 20 plus years in this industry, I have my fair share of stories about being a woman on a job site. But I feel like the guys that I work with and the guys that I've developed a relationship with over the years obviously are not that way, because I would not have developed a relationship with them otherwise.
Beth (24:58):
And I think they were just mad at me.You know what I mean? I think they were just disrespectful because we were wanting the best possible outcome.
Marilyn Moedinger (25:08):
Which, by the way, you're allowed to want that.
Beth (25:12):
And maybe we shouldn't have waited 29 years. You know what I mean?Like we had a lot riding on this. It was a ton of money, we saved up. This was a really big deal for us, which they also should understand because most people do a major renovation.
Sheri Scott (25:25):
Most projects are a big deal. Whatever size it is, it's as much as they can do at the time.
Beth (25:32):
It costs more than what my house cost in ‘96.
Sheri Scott (25:37):
Wow, awesome.So, looking back on it, it sounds like the positive point of them doing it all within six weeks, especially when you were living in the house, they got it done quickly. They got out.It sounds like they finished the project strong and got out of there, which is good.
Beth (25:59):
I think they wanted to get the hell out.
[Laughter]
Sheri Scott (26:02):
Did they draw a line for you and say, "We're not starting until all of your selections are done?" It sounds like you had everything detailed and communicated and ordered. Was that like a line in the sand that they said?
Beth (26:18):
That's a good question, because they said that in the meeting that we signed, they're like most of the projects … because I was expecting my first grandchild June 6th, and I wanted the kitchen to be up and ready, because they live across the street, for that time. So, there was a line in the sand, and we used to honestly, we signed with him in November.
So, no, he goes, "It's always the client who can't make decisions." I'm like, "That is not me. I can make really solid decisions, and I've waited a long time and I did so much research." My husband and I have the same taste. There are no issues. And we had everything decided. So, they couldn't push anything back on us.
Sheri Scott (26:59):
Right, right. That's good for you. That's good on you.
Marilyn Moedinger (27:02):
And I think also, sometimes builders can use that as a bit of an excuse because it is often the case that people are not decisive. But sometimes I want to say if the builders are not setting homeowners up for success, for how to make those decisions, if they say, "Well, you need to pick out this tile by tomorrow, because I'm installing it, and you need to go to this showroom, and you need to pick out something today, because I need to order it tonight."And you're like, "Well, that's not setting people up for success."
And that's not what you said happened here. But I'm just using an example from other … or maybe in your case, sending you to the showroom that they didn't understand what you wanted, and it took longer, and it was not … you're like, well, no, that's not the homeowner being bad at making decisions, that's the builder not setting up the process correctly for the homeowner to be empowered with the knowledge they need to make decisions.
Sheri Scott (27:53):
When you have the builder and that's really your only person coordinating things, that's a lot of times what we see where it falls through is the coordination of the selection. So, he did just set you up to send you to different places. Luckily, you had Linda to help manage those selections and maybe coordinate them.
Because people can make selections, but then what happens with that document that you create of those selections that you made, that has to be communicated to the contractor, and the contractor has to do stuff with that, and order things, and implement it, and get it shipped, and get it received in time.
So, it sounds like your contractor had plenty of failings, but when they did perform, they did a good job. I would not have predicted that that's what you would say how the construction went at the beginning of this conversation, because they don't … usually, if they're going to fail, they're going to fail all the way through, but your contractor-
Beth (28:58):
The only reason that they didn't fail is because Linda, Tony, and I sat on top of every bit of it.
Sheri Scott (29:04):
Well, we talk about that all the time, like that is a full-time job, and it's either a designer, architect, owner's rep, it's somebody that has to do that job, and so you guys did that full-time job.
Beth (29:17):
And we thought we were hiring that part. Like we thought we were getting someone to the … because his price was overpriced. When I went to the client's place, they had a free year (of) financing.And I said to the builder, is it okay if I just go through them? Because now, that it's $40,000 over, I'm going to take advantage of having a year to pay the $25,000 so I can pay you, and he's like, "That's fine."
So, we're at the end, two weeks left, the appliances are in, and they were supposed to come in on a Friday. And I get a call from Adam (the sweet guy from the store) and he's like, "Hey, do you want to set up the installation?" I said, "No, it's on my schedule, you should have an app. It says what's happening. Is that being installed tomorrow?"
He's like, "Oh no, no. Like somebody had to tell us." So, then I called the builder and I lost my sh*t.And I was like, "It's on the schedule." And he goes, "No, because you purchased them outside of us.You had to set that up yourself." I'm like, "You never told me that. How would I know that if it was on my app that they're being installed tomorrow?" And then that's when I just turned into the crazy person.
Marilyn Moedinger (30:29):
Well, but it's completely understandable because you're like, if you needed me to call, just tell me, I would have called.
Beth (30:36):
I would have done it. We’re very efficient people.
Marilyn Moedinger (30:40):
Yeah, you're on top of your game.
Beth (30:43):
That was bad.
Marilyn Moedinger (30:44):
Yeah, that's really frustrating. And it sounds like a lot of situations where builders promise that they can do all the design coordination, they can do the design or they know a person or whatever, and they really can't. And when they're charging for it and they're not providing that, it's not good.
Beth (31:00):
I felt like I was the general contractor, but I wasn't the general contractor, but I was paying for that.
Marilyn Moedinger (31:07):
You were paying for it. And you mentioned at the beginning that you love your kitchen and it's perfect, which is awesome. So, that's also really good.
Beth (31:14):
It's amazing.
Marilyn Moedinger (31:15):
Tell us a little bit about if someone comes up to you and says, "I'm going to do my kitchen this fall. I'm going to do it.I've been dreaming of this for 10 years, I want to do this." What would you tell them after what you've been through? What would you tell them to do that might prevent what you've been through?
Beth (31:38):
Well, everyone has asked me because it's so fabulous we did it. And I'm like, "I'm not going to give you their names because I don't want you to work with them."
Marilyn Moedinger (31:46):
You can give them my name.
Beth (31:49):
When I met you, I was like, "Why in the heck did I not … I could have saved myself so much." I will give them your name. But I have to say, I'm so proud of the kitchen because it was completely all of our doing, and I'm so proud of it.
So, I would just make them ask the questions which I thought I had already taught myself to ask. And Linda had warned me to get all the answers, but I still got the answers. And I still feel like it was a bait and switch situation.
Sheri Scott (32:17):
Right. I mean, there's only so much you can do. All you can do is ask the questions and if they're going to lie, I mean, you can't … yeah.
Beth (32:26):
So, when it was finished, the owner of the company came over to look at it, and it was like the final walkthrough. And he said that the designer from the company, the store that did the cabinets was going to be in touch to see if she could come over and take pictures to advertise. And I said, "Oh, well, she can email me, but the answer will be no, because she did not design this kitchen.Linda and I designed this kitchen, and she was surly and unfriendly, and she made it terrible. So, no, they're not."
And he's like, "Oh, well, what about for me?"And I'm like, "No. I'm going to have to say no, like you know." And he was just like shocked. And I was like, nope, I don't want anyone to get credit for this other than the fact that we had a really small team of intimate people that luckily, we have good sense of style and function, and it's truly amazing.Marilyn, when you see it, you'll be like, "Oh, goodness."
Marilyn Moedinger (33:28):
I know,I can't wait to see it.Well, I think I want to underline something you just said, too. It's like even sometimes, no matter what, no matter if you ask the right questions, sometimes it still doesn't work. And to be able to rely on friends, like you and Linda were tag teaming everything, to know when your husband needs to take on a certain role versus you versus whoever.
Ultimately, something we say a lot on this, in our conversations is that you need to have the bandwidth to do a project because even if you have the most perfect team — which you did not, but even if you do, there's still a lot of bandwidth that's required and it sounds like you guys were able to make that happen.
Beth (34:16):
And I do think that that's true. Like when you go to see a new house, you want to move into a new house, but it needs a lot of work. Depending on where you're at, you're in your lives, you may not be able to handle that (laughs) emotionally.It gets so traumatic.
And we waited a long time, and we were a hundred percent ready, so we could handle it.But just the amount of negativity surrounding it, but the fact that I like it so much, regardless, just makes me feel so happy that that didn't have any residual outlook on me, and it's everything that I wanted.
Marilyn Moedinger (34:51):
Well, I guess on that note, is there something particular that you love about it, especially like we heard the double oven, and it's a lot bigger, and is there something like a detail?
Beth (35:03):
I collect glasses from the 50s and 60s and it's like a bar area. And so, the one designer did help us design this. And then Linda's like, "Can you power spray it gold to match everything?"And I'm like, "Yeah." So, these glass shelves and then Linda designed a little coffee bar beneath it in the back corner, and there's a window in the door.
And so, every time I look at those glasses, I'm like, "Yes, that's what I wanted." And then we wanted a dining room to look like a dining room; we didn't want it to look like one big room. So, we have a banquette and this really fantastic wallpaper that Linda helped recolor. You could choose different colors.
So, it looks like a dining room in a kitchen, and it's super glamorous, but it's terribly functional. And really, when you walk in there, you say, "Oh, this is Beth." And it matches the rest of the thread of my house.
Sheri Scott (35:52):
That's great. Sounds lovely, really. And the fact that you can see all the good things after such a kind of traumatic experience, honestly, I think that's great. That's great. And you get it forever. And that there was a short time that was terrible.
Beth (36:13):
I also think being a business owner as a woman, it just does really make you have kind of a hard stop. Like now, I have clients, I mean, I said that to the guy. I'm like, "I would never treat my clients like this. This is not appropriate behavior."And it's just you have to stay that tough in order to get what you want, and I got what I wanted.
Marilyn Moedinger (36:36):
Well, I think also what you're saying too is that you know better even though you hadn't done a kitchen before to this degree. You knew that that isn't how it's supposed to go or that he's not supposed to … you know that from other aspects of your life. So, I'm so glad you stood your ground, I'm so glad you got exactly what you wanted. I can't wait to see it from the glasses to the gold to the wallpaper.It sounds fantastic.
Sheri Scott (37:02):
It does sound fantastic.Well done, ladies.
Marilyn Moedinger (37:04):
Well done. You did really well.
(Transition at 37:07)
Marilyn Moedinger (37:09):
So, that was fun.
Sheri Scott (37:10):
Both a tragic and heroic story at the same time (laughs).
Marilyn Moedinger (37:14):
Yeah, I guess when I say that was fun, that's what I'm referring to. It was like the last part where they get to the part about how beautiful it is and how much it's exactly what she wanted.
Sheri Scott (37:23):
Right, right, right.So many lessons in this one, and so many things that we've already talked about. But to take it the next step, I feel like addressing the fact that she did all the things. She interviewed three different builders, she got preliminary quotes from them, which is really what we tell people to do now because people aren't bidding full projects, competing.
So, she did all those things. I feel like what would we tell our listeners maybe the next steps they could have taken to save some of that?I'm not sure if she talked to references to see if what he said was true.
Marilyn Moedinger (38:10):
I think this is an obviously … I'm biased, but if you have an architect or an interior designer with you, they will be able to sniff out some of those answers that may sound good on paper or sound right in the moment but I'm sitting there going, no (laughs).
Sheri Scott (38:35):
Right. Because as soon as he said, "Well, we have a designer for you," I would have said, "Who's that? Did it work for you?And what does it cost?"
Marilyn Moedinger (38:46):
Exactly. And if they would say, "Oh, it's included," then that's the biggest red flag because it's a huge task.
Sheri Scott (038:54):
It's a cost.
Marilyn Moedinger (38:56):
Yeah, it's a cost. So, that means they're either not doing it or they're overcharging you for stuff that you didn't want. So, that whenever someone said, whenever a builder says, "Oh, yeah, design's included," that's a red flag and you need to ask more questions. But most people understandably say, "Oh, okay, great (chuckles)." Not knowing how much of an extra effort and how much cost that would really take to do it right.
Sheri Scott (39:30):
Yeah. And that's so common around here for builders.
Marilyn Moedinger (39:33):
And Lancaster too.
Sheri Scott (39:35):
Of semi-custom to just say, oh, not to lie and say I have a designer, but it's common practice to make the appointment at the cabinet place and make the appointment at the appliance place, and then you go in and you work with those workers, which is fine as long as it's all above board and honest, and everyone understands what they're paying for and getting.
It's not a great system.I mean, you should be great if you had a designer or an architect with you. I can't believe people lie about it, just tell people what you're actually giving them.
Marilyn Moedinger (40:08):
That's right. And I think the whole the builder makes appointments and you or the homeowner who's never done this before goes to all those appointments, walks in the door, has no drawings-
Sheri Scott (40:19):
Some random salesperson who could be great which luckily, she had a great one with the appliance guy, but then terrible with the cabinet. So, you have no control as the homeowner who you're working with.
Marilyn Moedinger (40:31):
There's no one thinking about the big picture. There's no one who's saying, "Hey, earlier today, we picked out this tile at the tile place, this cabinet color or this countertop doesn't work with us either visually or functionally, or whatever."
I mean, I just did a showroom day not too long ago and I took my clients around to all the different showrooms where I have reps who I've known for years.We go in, I make the appointments. I already know the product lines. Look, if we don't find something there, that's fine.We're not forcing anyone to go and buy that exact product, but we have to start somewhere at these showrooms where there's a bunch of different brands or a bunch of different things.
And the whole time when my client is choosing something, I'm like, "Oh, well, guys, remember when we picked out the really fancy tile at the last place and we said, that means we have to rein it in on the plumbing fixtures."
Unless someone is thinking about that holistically and the showroom people aren't going to know what you picked out at the other one, they don't know, and it's not their fault.So, it's a really faulty system, and it's like imagining that designing something is like putting together a puzzle where each piece fits perfectly with another piece, and that's not the way design works at all. It's much messier.
Sheri Scott (41:49):
Yeah, it's give and take and balance and rebalance.
Marilyn Moedinger (41:52):
And I think that's part of one thing that Beth said that was just like broke my heart is when she said she'd been looking forward to this process for years, and that it wasn't fun. And I know Beth, I mean, I know how much fun it could have been for her and for that process, and that broke my heart because you're imagining that kitchen redo for decades, and then it's not fun.
Sheri Scott (42:23):
Yeah, it's not fun. And they forced her hand to be the way she didn't want to be.And we can talk forever about male or female, and it really doesn't matter. Like she was in charge of the project, she was not happy, and if she hadn't said the things that she said, she wouldn't have gotten what she wanted. She wouldn't have been as happy at the end.
So, even though it was very stressful and it seemed like she was saying she was acting the way she didn't want to have to act, but because of the way her project was set up, she had no other option. Otherwise, she was going to be disappointed forever instead of just uncomfortable for six weeks.
Marilyn Moedinger (43:07):
Exactly. And I think we have generally interviewed folks who are standing their ground, but I know that there's plenty of stories of people who just are like, "Fine, whatever, I guess we'll go with stainless steel, they're telling me …"
Because it's not comfortable to have things be constantly confrontational. I mean, she was describing that everyone didn't like her. I understand that you're so stressed out, you've got a microwave in the living room, everyone's making a huge mess in your house, and everyone's ignoring the basic things that you're saying.
Sheri Scott (43:44):
Right. She only came to the project with five priorities, like hit those five. Come on.
Marilyn Moedinger (43:50):
Yes. And also, had mood boards and this is what I'm looking for and I'm going to be reasonable. I have a decent budget, like all that kind of stuff. And I think it's just I don't know, I'll get all worked up.
It's just upsetting to me because I just know that there's such a better way to do it, and I know that no matter what things are stressful during a project, like you can't avoid some stress.But it doesn't have to be everyone in my house is angry at me and my whole house is dirty and no one was listening to me.
Like it doesn't have to extract that much from you just to get your kitchen that you want. It doesn't have to be that way at all.And to the to that point, so most people would say, "Well, but at least I got the kitchen I wanted and it was cheaper because I didn't hire an architect."It wasn't cheaper.He showed up on day one and said 40 grand more, surprise!
Sheri Scott (44:50):
And then she fought tooth and nail to keep it within that.
Marilyn Moedinger (44:53):
Yeah. And an architect (spoiler alert) would not charge 40 grand for her kitchen. So, I don't know, I get a little spicy about that, but I'm glad that she ended up with a kitchen that she loves.
Sheri Scott (45:05):
Me too. Me too. It took a lot of hard work.Her and Linda, and she was lucky to have Linda.
Marilyn Moedinger (045:11):
That's right. That's right. I'm glad Linda could join us because I know that was a crucial element to the whole project.
Sheri Scott (45:18):
Okay, well, good lessons. I enjoyed talking to them.And like you said, I'm glad she ended up with the kitchen of her dreams, it sounds lovely.
Marilyn Moedinger (45:30):
Yes, exactly. Well, I think that's it for today. So, thanks for joining us on Home: The Second Story. If you'd like to come on the show and share your story, no matter good, bad, everything in between, drop us an email at admin@htsspodcast.com. We'd love to have you as a guest.
Be sure to rate and subscribe wherever you get podcasts, and don't forget to follow us on Instagram. We will see you next time.
Sheri Scott (45:53):
Bye.
[Outro Playing]
Voiceover (045:54):
Thanks for listening to Home: The Second Story Podcast. Feel free to share this episode with a friend.Contact information for both of our architects are in our show notes, and don't miss future episodes. Follow or subscribe to our show for free in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you're listening right now.