In this episode of Home: The Second Story, we talk with Brian from Cambridge, Massachusetts, about his multi-phase renovation experience. Brian shares his journey from purchasing a dated, 1980s-style home to transforming it into a personal and functional space. We begin with Brian’s decision to prioritize location and outdoor space, knowing upfront that renovations would be necessary. His project, led by Marilyn, was completed in two phases: an exterior porch addition and a larger interior overhaul.
Brian walks us through the reasoning behind starting with the porch—a structure in disrepair and home to a family of raccoons. This first phase gave him insight into the renovation process and served as a testing ground for team dynamics. While the project wasn’t without challenges, such as pandemic interruptions and zoning issues, Brian emphasizes the value of thorough planning and having a strong partnership with his architect. He also spoke to the value of discussing the project with his neighbors, so they knew what to expect.
As we move into the second phase, Brian explains the bold decisions they made, like eliminating a bedroom and reducing window count, to create a more functional layout. These choices prioritized how he lives rather than strict resale value, a strategy he now strongly recommends. The conversation also covers the importance of contracts and how switching contractors between phases ultimately benefited the project.
We reflect on the lessons learned—especially the importance of making decisions early, planning for zoning requirements, and having the right contractual protections in place. Brian’s key takeaway is simple: plan everything you can, because unexpected hurdles will come. His favorite part of the renovation? The transformation of the entry experience—walking into an open, light-filled space that brings joy every single day.
Voiceover (00:03):
Everyone says how horrible it'll be to renovate or build your house. We're here to say, it doesn't have to be that way. Join three seasoned architects as they interview homeowners who recently completed a large project, and ask them one simple question, what do you know now that you wish you knew before you started? Welcome to Home: The Second Story Podcast.
Taylor Davis (00:27):
Hi, and welcome to Home: The Second Story. We're three residential architects sharing real conversations with homeowners who've taken on custom home or renovation projects. If you haven't already, check out our first episode to hear more about us and why we're doing this. I'm Taylor Davis of TPD Architect in Birmingham, Alabama, and I'm joined by my co-hosts.
Sheri Scott (00:47):
I'm Sheri Scott of Springhouse Architects in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Marilyn Moedinger (00:51):
And I'm Marilyn Moedinger of Runcible Studios in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and Boston, Massachusetts. Today, we're joined by Brian from Cambridge, Massachusetts. Welcome, Brian.
Brian (01:01):
Hey everyone, pleasure to join you.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:04):
So glad you're here. We're going to dive right in with some quick questions.
Sheri Scott (01:09):
So, Brian, I'm going to ask you our first five questions just to get an idea of what your project was. So, where is your project located?
Brian (01:19):
I live here in Cambridge, Massachusetts just north of Harvard Yard.
Sheri Scott (01:24):
Was the project a new build, an addition or renovation?
Brian (01:28):
Definitely renovation. It was actually a multi-phase renovation. The real estate market here in Cambridge is was pretty tight and I think has actually gotten even tighter over the years. And so, as I was looking to move, had a lot of conversations with my real estate agent about priorities and tradeoffs.
And I optimized for a location and for some things like having outside space but knew coming into the property that we're going to need to make some changes at I purchased it from an older gentleman who was a professor and lived out of state most of the year. And he just hadn't done a lot with the property over a period of, I don't know, Marilyn, I think probably 20 years. It looked rather 80s vintage in here.
Marilyn Moedinger (02:22):
It was 80s.
Brian (02:23):
When I moved in. It was a functional house, and it had good bones but knew coming in that we're going to make some changes and so, it was a series of renovations here.
Sheri Scott (02:35):
When did you start your project? And then I guess you already lived there. Did you live there during the project? And about how long was the span there?
Brian (02:45):
I lived here throughout the project. The timeline was a little bit interesting for the main renovation because we kicked off a little bit before the pandemic broke out and so, that threw a couple of wrinkles into the project. But I think every project that probably encounter some unforeseen issues, so that was our little story there.
Like I said, it was a two-phase project, had never gone through a renovation before. So, in consultation with Marilyn, we had a number of good conversations about it. The first priority was going to be to work on the back deck and to build out a porch structure.
And I think there were a couple of reasons why we decided to sequence things that way. For one, the preexisting structure was unsafe. It was literally infested with a family of raccoons.
Marilyn Moedinger (03:52):
I was going to say, “Are you going to bring up the raccoons?” Because they were definitely (laughs).
Brian (03:56):
I live in a two-unit condo association, the floor underneath the preexisting deck structure was also leaking into my downstairs neighbor's living room, it was urgent to get that done. It was also an opportunity for me to start to kind of conceptualize and understand what a renovation would look like and what the process was going to be involved before stepping into the big one.
And then I think just the last part is, it is just something that I was really particularly excited to do. And that's not to say that I wasn't excited about redoing the kitchen, the interior structure, but I had moved to this house because I wanted to have the outdoor space, this was that first project that was just really high on my passion list to do.
And so, it made sense to kind of break up the project into those two phases. Even though we knew from the first time that Marilyn was over here, and even from the first time that I visited the property before buying it, it was clear that a broader renovation was going to take place. We just made the decision to move forward in phases.
Sheri Scott (05:21):
Nice. So, it sounds like you had a priority for that deck piece. How long was it between when you finished the outdoor piece to until you started jumping into even the design of the second phase?
Brian (05:37):
It wasn't that long with the design. And Marilyn, you can feel free to keep me honest here if you've got better recollection on any of the timelines. But I feel like the porch project kind of wrapped up in a little bit of a slow close out actually, but I think it was finally done in September timeframe.
Marilyn Moedinger (06:00):
It was in the fall, I remember. Because we were like, “Okay, you're going to at least have a couple of months out on the porch.”
Sheri Scott (06:07):
To enjoy it.
Brian (06:08):
That's right. And I feel like it was kind of that winter time when we started having the early conversations about the bigger renovation.
Sheri Scott (06:21):
So, obviously you worked with Marilyn as your architect with Runcible Studios. So, there are a lot of different ways to work with architects. How did you work with Runcible? Did you do full services? Did she help through construction? What did that look like?
Brian (06:38):
Yeah, full services through construction. What worked really well is that Marilyn and I just kind of hit it off early on. We have a similar mode of communicating and a good sense of humor.
Not that I've worked with a lot of architects, but from my perception was that it was a super collaborative design process across both of the projects where there were a lot of different ideas and a lot of fun brainstorming sessions where I came over to the Runcible office and we just, pen and paper and I probably made Marilyn crazy at times by sending over ideas late at night and stuff. But I don't know, Marilyn, you can jump in. I felt like it was just very collaborative throughout.
Marilyn Moedinger (07:31):
Yeah, I would agree with that. And one of my favorite stories about us working together on your project that I think would be fun for our listeners to hear is you showed up, do you remember for our first meeting with a model, a physical model, made out of cardboard and beer can boxes and all the stuff taped together.
Brian (07:53):
It's right over there.
Marilyn Moedinger (07:54):
Oh, good (laughs).
Sheri Scott (07:55):
Shut up.
Marilyn Moedinger (07:56):
Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you have it still. That's amazing. And I think from that point forward, I mean, I think it's important for people to realize, the architect is not there to dictate, the architect is there to help bring your vision to life.
And you had a very strong set of priorities and you had a strong set of things that you were like, this is, this is what matters for you, for the project and then it was about working together to figure out what worked with the house, so-
Brian (08:28):
I do have opinions about things and I did have a vision and I appreciated both that Marilyn, whenever I had a bad idea, which I had several Marilyn would always say, “Well, this is your project and it is my job to bring the vision,” and she would very delicately guide me.
When maybe something that I was thinking, “Oh, here's maybe another idea that you could also think about Brian,” which I appreciated that Marilyn had a perspective also, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
She did a fantastic job of incorporating my vision and things that were important to me and she didn't tell me what to do, but she brought other ideas to the table and yeah, so that's why it always felt like a partnership.
Marilyn Moedinger (09:19):
Well, that's lovely to hear. The porch project had a very interesting moment where, so when Sheri asked earlier, is this an addition or a renovation? It was actually a subtraction. So, we actually removed space from the house to make it better. Do you want to tell us a little bit about how we kind of landed there?
Brian (09:39):
Well, we did a lot of subtractions on this project because that's true of the Porch Project, but also true of the bigger interior renovation.
Marilyn Moedinger (09:49):
That’s true. That's true.
Brian (09:51):
And I think so often you go into these projects, and mentally you're thinking about adding, adding, adding but in order to achieve what we wanted to achieve, it took some creative thinking. So, on the Porch Project, I actually think the trade-offs were a little simpler on the Porch Project.
There was like kind of a weird back room behind the kitchen that clearly had been added to the house at some point. We eliminated that kind of non sequitur space in order to create a much larger exterior space and a much more kind of functional and just rectangular space in the porch. Just easier to furnish and stuff like that.
I think that the kitchen project was a little bit more, almost kind of challenging in that regard because I mean, I reduced the house by a bedroom. So, this house when I moved in was a four bedroom which is more than I needed or really made sense, but probably did make sense in 1915 when it was built.
And we also lost two major windows, which again, I think that you don't think about a modern renovation and reducing the windows. But both of those window reductions were, I can distinctly remember breakthrough moments of where are we going to fit the, it was the stove in the kitchen? How are we going to fit the stove in here?
And we were going around looking at so many different options. I didn't really want to have the stove on the island kind of a look for a variety of reasons. I can't remember exactly how, but there was a big aha moment where, hey, if we just got rid of the window here in the kitchen that would present us with counter space that would allow us to put the stove in a much more natural spot.
The kitchen had plenty of natural light, so it's not like we're moving into a cave kind of a situation. We actually increased the size. I went to a casement window kind of next to where the stove is, so that added some light, and there's plenty of light coming in from the other side.
So, as an example of giving up a window, which I really think is an unusual move, particularly renovating an older house in order to make the flow work. The other challenging kind of layout element was in the primary bedroom, trying to figure out, because again, I was giving up a bedroom in order to create some bath space and some closet space.
And what we wound up doing was a walkthrough closet. We actually walked from my bedroom through a closet, and the closet is kind of serves as the hallway and a little bit of a dressing room and then into the bathroom which functionally is a great layout. I love it because we come out of the shower in the morning, and the first thing you do is you usually get dressed.
And so, it makes a lot of sense to step right into a nice kind of dressing room closet. But yeah, to make that work also, just with the positioning of the walls we had to give up a window there also, which yeah, subtractions, but they were subtractions in the spirit of achieving what we wanted to get out of the end design.
Taylor Davis (13:46):
So, I have a quick follow up question. I know when we work with renovations and the consideration around getting rid of a bedroom, getting rid of a bathroom, even getting rid of windows, a lot of people worry about resale value at that particular moment. Is that a conversation that you all had that you thought about? Is that something that came up in the design process?
Brian (14:09):
Yes. And I think it was an example kind of reflecting back earlier on Marilyn. architects play a lot of roles during a project. There's design, there's a coaching element, psychologists sometimes. And I was worried about that because a four-bedroom house in Cambridge is actually really quite rare and there's certainly a market for that.
But what Marilyn coached me on, what I really came to believe, and now having had the project completed for a couple of years, listen, you don't want to make financially unsound or foolish decisions.
But when you're doing this project there's kind of a double bottom line because you know that yes, your house is an investment value, but the real value of the house is that you get to live there and enjoy the space.
And so, the advice that Marilyn gave to me and that I've passed on to other friends of mine who are at different stages and thinking about and executing renovations, is that really should design for what you want and build for what you want. And sure, you can think about it, but unless you're in the business of flipping a house for profit, which I'm not, the primary consideration is on what's going to work.
And I haven't had the house formally reassessed, but of course I had my real estate agent whosold me the house come through, we're personal friends also. And she absolutely loves it and it's transformed the space.
And so, I think it probably in the end did wind up working out well in terms of the resale value. But I'm glad that I didn't allow the worries about that to cloud the bigger picture objectives of what I was trying to get out of the renovation.
Sheri Scott (16:14):
It sounds like that was really good advice. And just like you said, Brian, you're not flipping this house, so you had a number of years that you were designing for, and I'm glad to hear that you took the advice, because I do think that when you're doing a project like that, you get advice from all different sides and sometimes it's hard to be clear about which advice to follow, but you said it very clearly, design for yourself and live in your house.
Brian (16:47):
And the sheer metrics don't tell the financial story of a house; a four-bedroom house on paper is valuable. But a four-bedroom house with a 1950s era kitchen that was in a cave kind of a situation and was non-functional and was non entertaining space, that is not a particularly appealing layout.
So, now I have a three-bedroom house, but I have an amazing kitchen that is terrific for entertaining, and it's much more open and it's got a more spacious feeling to it. The house feels larger through having given up that one bedroom. So, certainly, did some teeth gnashing at the time but absolutely have no regrets about that in hindsight.
Marilyn Moedinger (17:42):
Well, I'm always saying this, I probably said it to you at some point too. More space isn't better, better space is better.
I'm about to ask our signature question here, and you've already touched on this in a couple of ways, and I think this is also particularly interesting because you did two projects in a row, so you're particularly well suited to help our listeners understand knowing what you know now, what would you do differently?
Because you did get to do that, you made some adjustments between project one and two, and maybe you would do for project three, which I'm still waiting for the call, Brian.
Brian (18:19):
It’ll happen.
Marilyn Moedinger (18:21):
So, anyway, tell us some of your lessons learned that you would pass along to our listeners.
Brian (18:28):
Overall, no regrets from either of the projects, kept the relationship with the architect, changed the relationship with the contractor. And those relationships are, yeah, it's kind of everything in terms of the experience of going through the project.
It's hard for me to look back on the first project and listen, it didn't end super well with that first contractor, but I don't know what I would've done differently at the beginning to identify that. It's really hard to assess people upfront.
And I think the two-phase thing isn't for everyone that extends the project. But for me it worked out super well because thank goodness that the first gentleman that wasn't hired to do a larger scope of work, I think he was a good guy. I think he just struggled with the scope even of the first project.
And so, it did get present an opportunity to kind of change horses midstream. I think that's probably the biggest thing is yeah, investing in the relationships, building the comfort.
Another change that we made going into the second project, which I think was a learning that was, we went to the AIA contract which thankfully we never really needed. But a good contract is there and you hope that you don't need it. And the second contractor wasn't stoked about the AIA contract.
Marilyn Moedinger (20:10):
They never are (laughs).
Brian (20:11):
Nor did they freak out and say they wouldn't do it. And so, that helped me to get more comfortable.
Sheri Scott (20:21):
Brian, was the first contract? Did that builder develop his own contract and present it to you?
Brian (20:30):
Most likely, yes. Marilyn, maybe you can jog memory on this, we had a full set of drawings, and we had had some interesting permitting issues that one with the city where we had to go before the board of zoning appeals.
Marilyn Moedinger (20:46):
Yeah, we needed a zoning variance because this is a crazy story. I mean, Cambridge zoning is more difficult as it is, but there is a zoning district line that goes through Brian's house, not just property. I think it cuts off the back of your, definitely, property. I thought it went through the house. I can't remember now, but I remember the additional calculations beyond the extensive ones required by the city of Cambridge.
Anyway, it ended up being no problem because you as the homeowner, I mean, you went in and presented the whole thing and explained what you wanted to do. And in the end, they were fine with it, but it did add some time to the project to the approvals process to do that. But yeah, we had a full set of drawings including that, obviously that zoning variance process.
I don't remember whether the contractor developed it himself, but I think so, that's usually what happens if they have their sort of their boilerplate. And by the way, that isn't always a bad thing or a red flag or a problem, it just means that maybe it doesn't have some provisions that a heftier contract might have.
And that, again, not good or bad, we're not attorneys here, all that kind of stuff. But the AIA contract that we're kind of talking about now, there's a whole series of contracts that have been around for over a hundred years and obviously modified since then, but that address different issues that have come up over (laughs) decades and decades. So, that decision, I think, is a really crucial one. You saw that maybe you wanted a few more provisions included in that second round.
And you know what, speaking of things that you don't know about or you can't plan for, we had just gotten through demo when the pandemic hit so your house was completely torn to pieces and none of us knew what was going to happen. At least we could lean on, we've got a full set of drawings. We have a contractor that we're working with, we've got this contract, whatever.
But yeah, talk about things that you can't plan for and you want to have a good plan of attack (laughs), I guess, or at least a good team who can like (laughs), but yeah, I remember coming over to your house and you're living in a construction site, and they said, “You can't, construction has to stop.” And we were like, “We can't, like we can't.”
And so, it was only a couple of days later that the State came out and said, “If you're under construction on a residential project, that counts as essential work.” So, I just remember it was like me and doctors and nurses and plumbers out on the street and that was it.
Brian (23:35):
It was a weird time.
Marilyn Moedinger (23:36):
It was a weird time.
Brian (23:38):
The type of example of things you can't plan for. I think Marilyn, you kind of said it well, there's so many aspects of these projects that you can't plan for. And so, what you do is you just kind of account for that and just try and really double down on planning for everything that you can plan for.
I really remember in weeks and months kind of leading up to the project kicking off, I was hitting that decision fatigue stage, and it was like let's just push off in some of these decisions.
And this is where Marilyn put on a little bit of the coach hat and was like, “Buck up, Brian, you got to do this now. Because if you think that you're feeling overwhelmed today with the decisions, it's going to get worse before it gets better and so let's pull forward on some of this stuff.”
It was good advice in any circumstances, particularly good advice that because the whole world shut down and we really can't imagine going … we wouldn't have been able to go out and shop for fixtures in April 2020, so thank goodness that we did that and I think that's probably the meta takeaway.
Any decisions that you can make before the project gets rolling, you're well suited to do so because you just don’t know what's going to happen and being organized helps when inevitably I think in any project, something will go wrong. I think that's the only thing that you can be guaranteed of and if you've done your homework so to speak, then you're probably in better situation than you would be otherwise.
Sheri Scott (25:25):
Brian, I'm curious how the zoning worked out. What did that process look like? Because zoning issues are a lot different in every part of the country and I understand that where you are may be a little more stringent and difficult to get through than where I am.
Brian (25:46):
It was scarier before than it actually wound up being in reality. I was really nervous about it when we found out that we were going to have to go through this process and I thought that it was going to be a more substantial hurdle than it wound up being.
But guess what? I mean, the project that we were doing it was very reasonable, it was consistent with the look of the neighborhood. It was going to improve things that for my neighbors indirectly, just in terms of the look and feel of the place, it was also going to improve things directly from my downstairs neighbors by fixing the leak in their ceiling.
I was nervous about it going in but I think as long as you're a good neighbor and I did the homework of knocking on doors and explaining the project and I had the elevation drawings and the conceptuals of what we were thinking about. Yes, it required a FAR ratio variance that it was required, but it was really a modest change.
And I think the reason that cities have these boards to appeal things is I think probably a lot of the things that come before the board make sense and they're reasonable. And so, in the end, it wound up being kind of a more or less rubber stamp experience, but I think that's because I had gone around and had met with my neighbors.
Marilyn Moedinger (27:17):
That’s a huge part of it.
Brian (27:20):
And I think it was important that I showed up in person for the hearing. So yeah, all of that said, if you're in that situation, I certainly wouldn't let it scare you away from doing a project, it wasn't that big of a deal at the end of the day.
Marilyn Moedinger (27:39):
Did it extend your timeline at all?
Brian (27:41):
Yeah.
Marilyn Moedinger (27:43):
I think it was probably three to four months at the very least.
Brian (27:49):
I mean, we wound up working through that stuff during the winter time anyway, so we knew early on that we were going to have to go through this so it wasn't a mid-project surprise. It was before we had the contractor involved. You can't build a porch in Cambridge in February anyway.
So, I don't know if it actually had that material of an impact on the actual delivery timeframe, but it did take a couple of months to get everything filed with the city and there's certain paperwork that has to be done, and the hearing had to be scheduled and stuff. Again, not a major hurdle, but just something to go through.
Marilyn Moedinger (28:27):
Well, I also think not a major hurdle because we planned for it. I think sometimes you hear these horror stories and it's because people don't know, or people have no idea that there is a zoning board even that they have to deal with or that there's this issue on their property or whatever.
And I think it's just another testament to making sure you're prepared, because having a delay of three or four months is no big deal if you're planning for it.
But it could be catastrophic if you were like, “Oh, I was moving out of my house and I was trying to do all this stuff.” So, I think that's a good little thought for our listeners as well is to say, “Hey, things are only emergencies if you haven't planned for them, so (laughs).”
Sheri Scott (29:09):
That's a good way to put it.
Marilyn Moedinger (29:12):
If we say, “Oh, it might take six months and it takes three, we're delighted. If we thought it was going to take zero months and it takes three, we're very upset, (laughs).” So, any other thoughts on the construction?
Brian (29:23):
The one thing that I would say is that if you do reach the breaking point with the contractor, recognize that you're at the breaking point and cut things off. We did hit a certain point with the first contractor where the relationship did start to deteriorate. And I think there was probably a fork in the road moment of like, “Hey, are we just going to try and grin and bear it?”
We were pretty far along. It was really kind of a finishing stage, which is frustrating in and of itself that we had gotten to that point before things deteriorated. But yeah, my advice would be that keep your eyes open and if things really aren't going the right direction, don't suffer through it because you're going to live in the house for a lot longer than the project.
It was emotional and painful to go through at the time. But I'm glad that we didn't wind up making a bunch of quality and design sacrifices that he was really pushing for in an inappropriate way. I'm so glad that we didn't make those decisions.
Because I would be staring at those bad decisions every day and instead, we were friendly about it and we tried to work things out but at the end of the day, we stuck to our guns and we executed on the project as had been designed, which was the right thing to do.
Marilyn Moedinger (30:53):
Those conversations are in the rear-view mirror, but seeing … so I think it's time for our last question.
Taylor Davis (31:00):
What's something about the finished projects that you love every time you see it, and you get excited about it?
Brian (31:07):
It's a little difficult to describe. Marilyn will know exactly what I'm talking about, but I live on the second floor and just the experience of walking up the stairs into my house, it's just radically transformed relative to where it used to be. May be difficult for the listeners to kind of understand, but you used to walk up the stairs and get a view right into the bathroom-
Marilyn Moedinger (31:36):
Like the toilet, you would just see the toilet.
Brian (31:38):
Yeah, it was just toilet. Welcome to my house, here's the toilet and now the experience is to walk into this really bright open space with view of the kitchen just a beautiful blue color that you can see right out into the trees right through the porch that we've been talking about.
And so, yeah, that's an everyday experience for me of coming upstairs and walking into a house that I really feel reflects my personality and my lifestyle and that's just brings a little bit of joy every day when I come upstairs.
Sheri Scott (32:21):
That's great. And what a long way it came from the old guy that you bought it from. Exactly. That's great.
Marilyn Moedinger (32:29):
Well, thank you so much, Brian. It was really pleasure to have you on here and thank you for sharing all these insights for our listeners, really, really appreciate it.
Brian (32:38):
My pleasure. Hopefully, we'll be able to come back and do the phase three.
Marilyn Moedinger (32:43):
Phase three, let's do it.
(Laughter)
Thank you so much.
Brian (32:48):
My pleasure.
Taylor Davis (32:50):
Thank you, Brian.
Sheri Scott (32:51):
Marilyn, Brian sounds like he was a great client.
Marilyn Moedinger (32:54):
Yeah. He was really great to work with and I think his story is really great for our listeners in particular because he had those two projects one right after the other. And I really appreciated how he told some of those details and went into some more detail on adjustments that he made from one project to the next. And I know there'd be similar adjustments, he's talking about phase three, so similar adjustments there too, so I think that's really useful to hear.
Sheri Scott (33:24):
We talk with clients sometimes about whether they should phase a project or not, especially renovation when they're living there, which he lived there during the project, and it turned out to be a great advantage to him that he had some kind of pause between phase one and phase two because he could adjust.
Marilyn Moedinger (33:46):
Yep. I think the phasing question is one that comes up a lot because mostly people are trying to save money and so they say, “Well, if I do the whole project, it's X dollars, but if I break into two more manageable chunks,” I think the complication comes when phasing it actually makes the project more expensive.
I mean, at the end of the day, it makes the project more expensive as a total. And I think that's an important thing I just want to point out, but it's also not always possible for people to take that big of a bite all at once. So, it's okay if it costs more total but you're able to do it in more manageable chunks for your life or your budget.
Taylor Davis (34:28):
Or you don't have to move out.
Marilyn Moedinger (34:30):
Or you don't have to move out.
Taylor Davis (34:34):
So, yeah, I think phasing is a tricky question and it really depends on the project about whether or not it's even phaseable because drawing that bright line around this is phase one, this is phase two may not always be those two distinct pieces unless they're really on opposite sides of a house. Something ends up touching or bumping up against something else, and we have to kind of figure out how do we put a cap on X so that we can save it for phase two or phase three or whatever it is.
So, not every project, despite, we would love for them to be able to be that clean and like Legos and we can just break them apart. Not every project is suitable for being phased like that. So, having that conversation with the architect and builder very early on about whether or not it's even feasible for us to phase this, I think is a critical thing.
Marilyn Moedinger (35:26):
Well, and in his case, the phasing was super clear because it was literally an outdoor porch and that's kind of selling the project a little bit short. I mean, there was a lot that went into it and a big roof and like all this stuff that we had to do on a second floor, it was a big deal, but it didn't affect the interior of the house at all, so it was very easy for him to face and yeah, then he got to have the lessons learned.
Sheri Scott (35:54):
One point he brought up on the lessons learned that he was sharing with people was double down on planning the things that you can plan, because there's a lot of unknowns but if you can get all of the planning that you can done early, then that frees you up to deal with the unknowns, I would think.
Marilyn Moedinger (36:15):
Yes, exactly. And I think part of that went into, and we got into the zoning conversation. I think that's another area where it's a minefield if you're working with professionals who understand zoning.
I mean, when we start a project in these tight zoning areas, like in Cambridge and Somerville and Boston and these places, that's the first thing we do. We don't even talk about what it looks like, we don't talk about any of that. We are talking about what does zoning allow us to do.
And they're very boring diagrams and there's a lot of calculations, but we don't want to go down the road of promising all this great stuff and then find out we need 16 variances that they'll never get. So, the planning is about choosing things, but the planning is also about zoning and code and all that kind of stuff too.
Taylor Davis (37:01):
Well, and contracts. And one of the things he brought up was contracts and how different the contracts between the two builders that he worked with was. And I think people sometimes can overlook that as part of the process that you have these drawings, well those drawings are actually part of the contract.
And so, making sure that you have as good a contract as you do set of drawings (laughs) is protective for everybody that's on the team. So, it's okay to look at the contracts. You should look at the contracts. You're about to make a huge investment making sure that you've gone through those.
We use AIA contracts most of the time too, and we recommend that our clients work with those. Actually, I've had several contractors who want to use contracts that consist of written scopes of work as opposed to referring to the drawings and that's not actually the way that works.
Marilyn Moedinger (37:54):
Red flag.
Sheri Scott (37:55):
Red flag.
Taylor Davis (37:55):
A giant red flag. The contract with the contractor is supposed to include the drawings as part of their contract.
Sheri Scott (38:02):
That includes the date on the drawing.
Taylor Davis (38:04):
The dates, yes, that the right set, that all of those things are all together. And so, those documentation, they can seem kind of nitpicky, but it's so helpful if there's a question, not necessarily conflict, because lots of times it doesn't get to conflict.
If there's a question, those things are set in place, those guardrails are up, you've planned ahead because, and you've put the pieces into place so that if there is a concern, you've got some stuff to refer to.
Marilyn Moedinger (38:31):
Exactly. I think the contract issue as well, over the years I've heard folks say things like, “Oh, well if the contractor's sending us this, I'm sure it's fine or I'll just have my friend who's an attorney look at this and I'm sure it's fine.”
And then I say, “What kind of attorney?” And they're like, “Oh, a family law attorney.” I am like, “Well, that's really cool and I'm sure whatever but they do not know about construction contracts.” So, (laughs) you need to have someone who's knowledgeable about this world.
And by the way, we're not attorneys, but we have certainly been around these contracts a lot. And we can certainly say, well, in our experience, it is better to get a contract that is a bit more robust and reviewed by professionals who understand it, rather than going with whatever half a piece of paper that the GC decides to.
And I don't want to be unfair; I'm not trying to be unfair to GCs at all here. I used to be one, everybody remember I came from that world and we always used AIA contracts. That's where I learned about them actually.
Sheri Scott (39:37):
I think Brian had a lot of wisdom for our listeners and had a lot of good points that he brought up.
Taylor Davis (39:47):
Thanks for joining us on Home: The Second Story, if you'd like to come on the show and share your story, email us at admin@htsspodcast.com. We'd love to have you as a guest. For more inspiring homeowner stories and tips, we'll see you next time.
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