In this episode of Home: The Second Story, Sheri Scott and Marilyn Moedinger talk with Caleb Fetter, President and Managing Partner at RMS in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. RMS is an electrical services provider, lighting specifier, and technology integration company. As Caleb puts it, they are “not just the AV guys.”
Caleb explains why electrical, lighting, and technology planning need to happen much earlier in a custom home or renovation project than many homeowners expect. He says the ideal time is usually after schematic design, as the project moves into design development. That is when the architect, builder, client, and technology team can talk through goals, budget, finish level, and how the home will actually be used.
A major theme of the conversation is that good technology should make a home easier to live in, not more complicated. Caleb pushes back on the idea that smart home systems mean too many apps, touchscreens, or voice commands. When done well, technology can simplify daily life with carefully planned buttons, lighting scenes, wired infrastructure, and systems that are tailored to the homeowner’s routines.
We talk about lighting design, LED technology, and why cheap or default choices are not always the best choices. Caleb explains that better lighting does not always mean a dramatically higher budget. Sometimes it means bringing the right people in early, asking better questions, and giving electricians or lighting professionals enough time to make thoughtful recommendations.
For homeowners who are not building luxury homes, Caleb’s advice is still clear: find professionals who listen to your goals, understand the quality of experience you want, and are not just trying to sell gadgets or win the job with the cheapest bid. He also explains why “wireless” homes still need wiring, especially for internet infrastructure, security cameras, doorbells, generators, and other connected systems.
Sheri and Marilyn close the episode by reflecting on how important it is for homeowners to advocate for what they want. Technology, lighting, and integration affect daily life in a home. Planning them early can prevent frustration later and create a better experience from design through move-in and beyond.
(00:00) Intro
(00:39) What RMS does: electrical, lighting, and technology integration
(04:10) Why the end of schematic design is the right time to start
(06:34) Budgeting early for lighting and technology
(08:22) Homes are more complex than they used to be
(10:17) The myth that technology makes a home harder to use
(12:13) Why RMS avoids the phrase “smart home”
(13:55) Why architects and builders need specialty experts
(16:49) RMS’s role in lighting design
(19:20) How RMS connects design with field implementation
(24:16) Advice for homeowners outside the luxury market
(28:05) The future of LED lighting, connected devices, and AI
(39:03) Caleb’s favorite part of helping homeowners
(42:42) Recap
(53:35) Summer vacation announcement
Sheri Scott (00:00):
Hi, and welcome to Home: The Second Story. We are two residential architects sharing real conversations with homeowners who've taken on custom home or renovation projects. I am Sheri Scott with Springhouse Architects in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Marilyn Moedinger(00:15):
And I'm Marilyn Moedinger of Runcible Studios based in Lancaster, PA and Boston, Massachusetts. And today, we are joined by Caleb Fetter, who is the President and Managing Partner at RMS in Lancaster, PA.
Caleb Fetter (00:29):
Thanks for having me on, guys. I really appreciate it.
Marilyn Moedinger(00:30):
Well, I'm really excited for our listeners to hear what you do. So, let's start off with that. Let's start off with who is RMS and what do you guys do?
Caleb Fetter(00:39):
RMS is an electrical services provider, a lighting specifier and technology integration company. And that is as short and condensed as I can possibly make that sentence (laughs).
Marilyn Moedinger (00:52):
And what are you not? Because I've heard you say this.
Caleb Fetter(00:55):
We're not just the AV guys.
Marilyn Moedinger (00:57):
There we go.
Caleb Fetter (00:58):
We used to be just the AV guys when we started out 25 years ago because that's mostly what the industry was, but it has evolved significantly in that time period. So, yeah, we're a very different thing than what we started out to be.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:14):
And I said that you're in Lancaster, but you actually have multiple locations.
Caleb Fetter (01:18):
We do. We're headquartered here in Lancaster. We've always been Central PA.I actually didn't start the company. That’s our founder, Matt Early, great guy, built the first RMS location in a bank barn in rural Mannheim, Pennsylvania, in the middle of a cornfield. And I'm not making that up.
You would drive past this white barn, assuming it's full of old cow manure and hay and when you open the door, it had touch panels and a home theater, and it was this like portal. It was magical. It was unbelievable.
Sheri Scott(01:54):
That's cool.
Caleb Fetter (01:56):
So, yeah, we've always been headquartered here in central PA. Lancaster is home.But we do have a design studio in North Philly and Chestnut Hill, and under construction to open this fall is our new experience center and location in Wayne to serve the main line and Philadelphia.
Marilyn Moedinger (02:13):
Awesome.So, can you talk a little bit about, you gave that very concise description of what you guys do. Can you help our listeners who are homeowners contemplating a project, when are they calling you? What are they calling you for? Tell us a little bit about how that goes.
Caleb Fetter(02:29):
Sure. And that has been an ever-evolving thing as we've really responded to what our clients need us to be to serve them. We typically, to be successful, need to be brought into projects much, much earlier than people would originally or think they should bring us into.
I've found over the years that MEP service in a residential build, which you guys are obviously very well experienced in, and I've listened to plenty of the episodes, you guys speak our language, which is fun. A lot of that just really gets pushed down the stream to be kind of figured out later. Electrical systems are put on a permit set or a bid set, but they're very rarely scrutinized, they're very rarely real.
Same thing for lighting. It's often just assumed that you will have lighted rooms that not only serve the minimum needs of life safety, but are beautiful.Our clients don't send us Pinterest images that just look safe, they send us images that are beautiful, and so there's a lot of intent that has to be understood with that.
And then on the technology side, that's even further typically down the road where it's almost an afterthought where teams are scrambling to get wiring in places and people assume that it's just all wireless and magic now.
So, we've really worked to understand what is the right time to bring us in, and it's actually pretty darn early now for successful projects, implementation for budgeting, engineering and documentation, and then obviously in through construction. So, very, very early.
Sheri Scott(04:10):
What is early?
Caleb Fetter (04:11):
Well, to put a little bit of an architect hat on, typically at the end of schematic design and when the design really moves into design development, is we've determined to be the ideal time. It's not too early, but we actually have been building data sets that really allow us to be an asset for our design and build teams to give accurate budget information for this subset of services within the home, which kind of to zoom out a little bit, we're seeing a couple of major revolutions just in the built environment.
Lighting used to be filament based. It was pretty much all line voltage; dimming was done beautifully and simply if you did want dimming. But now, the world lives with LED lighting and we're never going back.
So, that requires a completely different set of everything, blueprints of financial data, benchmarking — anyway, it's a very different world now with lighting.And then the other thing is really, technology and the internet dominate and connect to basically everything.
And so, what we're finding is our design and build partners that we work with find us to be a valuable asset to be able to establish very real budgets at an incredibly early stage once we understand project intent.
And the whole goal is to just create a really great experience from the idea that someone's going to build or renovate a home to the time they move in. That experience doesn't start when they move in, it starts when they start.
And so being able to let the architect and the builder move the project into kind of real-world territory, like okay, we've presented some budgets, they haven't been too scared away, we think this design is sort of real. We understand program.We understand a basic floor plan. We understand some good things. That's really about the perfect time for us to be brought in to have a consultation with the design team, the build team, and most importantly, the client.
What are their goals? What are their objectives? What's the finish level? What's the context? And then at that point, we actually can provide incredibly accurate budgetary data that then gets brought into the build costs to just create a kind of non-disruptive process after that, no surprises, is kind of one of the things that we say internally.
Sheri Scott (06:34):
Well, that makes sense to me, thinking through interactions with my clients because once we get through a schematic design, I tell them we know what the building looks like, and that's usually when we introduce them to builders that we think may be a good fit for the project.
And so, I could see once we get to the point of introducing the builders, then we'd be starting to get some of the preliminary pricing numbers, and then at the same time, bring you guys in, because it's … not to scare anybody off, but it can be a big number.
And if you don't want it to be a big number, you should figure that out early rather than later, rather than going through the entire thing thinking, I'm going to have all of these amazing things.I'd much rather have my clients be educated in the beginning and say, “Oh, you want all these amazing things, but you know what, that's $250,000.” So, we may dial that back a little bit.
Marilyn Moedinger (07:39):
And the flip side is true, too, just to jump in and say that if they really, really want to prioritize the technology side or lighting or these things that we're talking about, and the budget, which I've never worked with a client where there wasn't a budget, everyone's budget is different, but there's always a budget.
Caleb Fetter (07:57):
Always a budget.
Marilyn Moedinger (07:58):
Then if they have that information and they want to prioritize that, then maybe some other things have to be pulled out. And we can know that early and we can say we're prioritizing the technology package and the lighting package because that's really important to this client, that means that we're going to have to make these other adjustments in the project to make that overall. And instead of waiting until the end and then cramming it all in there, it's not great.
Caleb Fetter (08:22):
We really primarily serve the luxury residential space. We have projects of all sizes, and we've certainly served clients that with much more, the need to be much more frugal. But what I'm finding, homes are just significantly more complex than they used to be.
Our window envelopes are so much larger than they used to be. A modern home has multiple thermostats where … the house I grew up in, in rural Ohio, Sheri, was one mercury thermostat.
Sheri Scott (08:57):
One that we all fought over.
Caleb Fetter (08:58):
You never touched. No, dad set it at 62, you never touched it, and you froze your butt off.
Marilyn Moedinger (09:04):
62 in the winter (laughs).
Caleb Fetter (09:06):
Well, there was no air conditioning. But now, I mean, that's my point. We have two and three stage HVAC systems, and no client ever buys a three-stage geothermal HVAC system because they're an enthusiast about HVACs.
Marilyn Moedinger (09:21):
Oh, you might be surprised.
Caleb Fetter(09:23):
There might be. Typically, people would just say, "Well, I want my home to be comfortable and efficiently cooled and heated,"we take that to heart. No client that we work with really wants more technology or they never come in going, "I want to buy all the LED lighting that I could possibly cram into my house."
They start with, "Well, I want my home to be comfortable and I want it to be beautiful."And I kind of get scared when I have too many mobile apps and I don't want seven light switches in the kitchen.
Sheri Scott (09:55):
Can we talk about that specifically? Because with my clients, I do hear that more and more.I do not want every light to be controlled by an app. And some even go to the point of, I would rather have seven light switches that I know are going to work when I walk into the room. Where do you see people falling on that?
Caleb Fetter (10:17):
The biggest myth that we have to dispel is that technology makes it harder and more complicated because when done properly, the exact opposite is true. And the word intent is one that we use all the time. You cannot develop these systems that are so hyper-personalized in a vacuum.
You have to know your client; you have to build a relationship with them. You have to know that sometimes they let the dog out at three in the morning. I mean, honestly, that's the relationship that we build with our clients. It's a very intimate relationship.
So, the biggest myth that we dispel is that technology actually makes the home harder to use because when you do it properly, the exact opposite is true.
An analog home, if you build it — again, let's talk luxury, but if we're in luxury homes, that kitchen is going to have eight light switches. So, which is harder to use, and which would you do all the time? Would you come in and flip all the switches and adjust the dimmers for eight loads, or would you rather just come in and push a button that says kitchen and all the lights turn on to exactly the way you want them so that your kitchen is beautifully lit?
Well, and to the app thing, everything in the world comes with an app, but nobody really wants to turn their lights on with an app.I mean, you'd might do it the first time. You're like, "Hey, check this out, I can turn my lights on from my phone."
But after the novelty wears off and life kind of picks back up where you're bringing in groceries and you're letting the dog out and you got to get the kids to soccer, having buttons that are curated to your life that just do the thing you need them to do is so luxurious and beautiful and simple.
People just build this up in their head that it's really hard to use. The words smart home are ones that we never use, I stay away from that like the plague-
Marilyn Moedinger (12:12):
That’s smart to not use those words.
Caleb Fetter (12:13):
They can be autonomous, they can be automated, they can be whatever — smart, they are not. They have to be crafted and curated.Just like you pick a wall color because it makes someone feel good and they like how it relates to the rest of the palette.
Having a button that just does the thing that you want it to do is kind of the ultimate luxury for our little part of the pie section, for the build, and most of the time it comes from two main reasons, is one is a bad experience.
We've had people come in and they're like, "We do not want lighting control," and I ask the simple question of, "Well, why would that be? Because from our perspective, our clients all love it because we did it properly." And so, when we dig into that conversation, we then can give them typically an education. And then our showrooms are built for experiences to completely just to dispel all of those myths.
And then the second is, the people that work in this industry are enthusiasts. They like the gadgets, and the problem is they think their clients like the gadgets too, and the clients really don't like the gadgets.
So, we have companies that sell smart home that think our clients love touchscreens and they love mobile apps and they love voice control, and our clients really just don't. They just have a home that needs to keep up with them, they're moving in a million miles an hour, and when done properly, the biggest myth is that it actually improves things. It's better in many regards.
So, yeah, typically bad experiences and then just an enthusiast-led industry that's kind of tainted the well a little bit (laughs).
Marilyn Moedinger (13:55):
And one thing I've learned from some of our conversations too, is that architects and interior designers don't always know, and builders don't know. So, we don't know all the latest or we don't know the best possible ways either.
You know, architects, designers, builders, we're Jacks and Jills of all trades, we are not the deep dive. We know just enough about all things to conduct the orchestra, but we are not the experts at playing the violin or playing the cello or whatever.
And so, I think that's why as projects become more and more complex, it is helpful to have the HVAC engineer, the expert in lighting, these different things to come in and help us kind of get up to speed on these things and take a deeper dive, especially with these really kind of signature projects make sense.
Caleb Fetter (14:55):
And the funny part is, from our perspective, we didn't know that architects weren't masters of this domain-
Sheri Scott (15:04):
Because we act like we know everything.
[Laughter]
Caleb Fetter (15:12):
I was going to say I didn't go to school for architecture. I didn't go to college at all, but the idea that architects create and craft these beautiful structures and dwellings and buildings, and you kind of just assume when you're on the outside looking in that you guys just know everything about everything, because that's what being an architect is.
And now, that I've been able to have the conversations with a lot of very sophisticated architects, regardless of like firm size but ones that really are passionate about creating just an incredible built environment, regardless of whether it's commercial or residential or whatever. I asked them a very simple question, and I was shocked at the answer, which is, do you know how to work with or design modern electrical and lighting? The answer unanimously is no.
Sheri Scott (15:59):
But we know the experts to get them to, that's what we need to know.
Caleb Fetter (16:03):
Again, from our perspective, we just didn't know until we asked such what seemingly is a simple question that you can just continue to unpack and dig deeper and deeper into that. Which is why our business model of being brought into a project that early under a consulting agreement, just like a civil or a structural engineer is hugely anomalous.
There are very few of us across the country that have anything like that which is neat, challenging, hard to figure out, but it really just came from the very simple question of, "Architect, do you know how to work with modern electrical and lighting?" And the answer unanimously was no. It didn't have anything to do with apps or Wi-Fi or tech.
Sheri Scott (16:49):
Do you do lighting design or do you bring in another consultant-
Caleb Fetter (16:51):
We do.
Sheri Scott (16:52):
You do do the design.
Caleb Fetter (16:54):
We do both of those. So, I'm a self-studied master of nothing, kind of the jack of all trades.I grew up reading my dad's photography books and it taught me the basic principles of how light works.
So, light, whether it's coming from a recess light or from a strobe in a portrait studio, it's light, it behaves the same way. And so, I'm a bit of a self-taught lighting designer but I would never insult all of the real lighting designers by trying to say I am one.
So, on smaller projects or ones where a lighting designer is simply not available, we can fill in as a pretty good surrogate there and provide good design and understand that layers of light are important, and color temperature is important.
Sheri Scott (17:40):
Well, the amount of experience you come from, it lends a lot of credibility to what you're able to do. And yes, there are places for I don't know if they're licensed "real" lighting designers, but there are places in this industry for all levels, I think, and you just have to find your niche.
Marilyn Moedinger (18:07):
And also, I think that we've said it a couple of times about being a Jack or Jill of all trades and people know the second part of that phrase, but they very seldom say the third part. So, the second part, so jack of all trades, master of none, but often times better than a master of one. And that's the rest of the phrase that everyone leaves out.
Caleb Fetter(18:30):
I never even knew that part of the phrase existed.
Sheri Scott (18:31):
I never heard that either Caleb (laughs).
Marilyn Moedinger (18:32):
Fun fact of the day.
Caleb Fetter (18:35):
We learn something every day.
Marilyn Moedinger (18:36):
And I think that's really applicable to what we're talking about. So, we're jack of all trades, master of none, but sometimes that's actually better than being so focused on one tiny thing or one very small slice of the pie to use a phrase you were using earlier, that you're missing out on a word you said earlier, which is integration.
Caleb Fetter (18:59):
Yeah. None of this can be done in isolation without understanding everything else.Ceiling heights, finishes, wall colors, ceiling colors, construction methodology, insulation envelopes, I mean, just on and on and on.And I think that's one of … I didn't mean to cut you off, but I think it's one of the things that we provide a lot of value because we're not just the design side, we're the implementer.
Marilyn Moedinger (19:20):
Well, right.We haven't talked about that. You guys are the electricians.
Caleb Fetter (19:24):
That's correct.Yeah, we are the trade. And one of the things that's been really interesting is to build.And again, all of this was truly just an organic, iterative, changing and evolving business model to meet the needs of the client where they needed to be served. I didn't just wake up one day in 2013 and go, "Hey, we're going to do all of these things." We would get done with a project and we would analyze it.
Why was this so challenging? Why was the experience not as good as it should have been? Not the end result, we sometimes martyred ourselves or just killed ourselves to deploy a project. We would rewire things that the electrician we got stuck with would wire incorrectly because we just would never be comfortable putting our name around an experience that just wasn't as good as we could possibly make it.
But then we would talk as a team, "Man, why was that so challenging? What could we have done to circumvent that problem we ran into?" And so, what's been fun now is to develop a much more structured process internally that we actually bring members of our field team into design peer reviews before projects get sent to contract.
Because what they're going to do is they're going to have the eyes of the of the field that the perspective flips 180 degrees, and it's that we don't want to get them out in the field on a multimillion-dollar home and have them go for kind of like, "Why do we order these things? These boxes never work in this wall assembly."
So, they pick it apart and they are given agency to impart change on the design from the perspective of the field. And that happens in real time and that happens on every project.
Marilyn Moedinger(21:02):
Well, and this is why among many reasons why I thought you'd be a great guest for our listeners, because this is what we're asking our homeowner interview people every time, knowing what you know now, what would you do differently?
You've been able to be on that, on repeat, for the last 10, 12 plus years, so not just thinking obviously of the business side of things, that's a whole other podcast we could all start, but what would you tell homeowners? What would you like to see them do differently? Because not everyone has access to someone like you, or what are-
Caleb Fetter (21:39):
Oh, we travel. We have airplanes.
Marilyn Moedinger (21:43):
There you go. You heard it here first.
Caleb Fetter (21:44):
We have airplanes in central Pennsylvania, and we do have clients in New York and New Hampshire and Florida. And so, I mean, I've listened to the podcast, so I kind of knew this question was coming. If I could have a homeowner know one thing retrospectively that it's the experience can actually be wonderful.
And I know that's a great sound. We talk internally all the time without trying to sound condescending. Clients that can afford a professional like us set the bar so low for what their expectation is because they call it “technology.”
And we reboot our computers and we reboot our phone and we have to reconnect our Bluetooth in our cars and on and on it goes, but when it's done properly and you engineer it and you assign an appropriate budget that's responsible but adequate to be able to put in all the mechanisms that you need, which is wiring — not everything is wireless.
In fact, I always make the joke, you have to use a lot of wiring to go wireless.We install more wiring now than we did 10 years ago if you can imagine that.
Sheri Scott (22:58):
Interesting.
Marilyn Moedinger (22:59):
Interesting. Another fun fact.
Caleb Fetter (23:02):
Infrastructure should always be wired. It's not terribly expensive and it is the right way to do it. The end, there's no dispute (laughs).
But oftentimes, if you don't have enough runway to engineer it properly, meaning you're not brought into the design earlier enough, then most integrators or companies that are the implementers are left scrambling to come up with a B solution or a C solution, or a we're on double M, this is terrible, but we just got to do something because the client needs Wi-Fi in the cabana, that kind of thing.
And then that just creates this cycle of well, it's low expectations, the Wi-Fi doesn't work out here and my security cameras didn't work when I needed them to.So, yeah, I mean, if anybody listening to this could hear retrospectively, you can actually expect a really good experience, you just have to do it a different way.
Sheri Scott (23:52):
And it sounds like a lot of that has to do with starting early which we've talked about.
Caleb Fetter (23:59):
Starting very early, you have to plan for this.
Marilyn Moedinger (24:02):
So, I want to ask a follow-up question that is maybe more challenging.So, you'll just let me know-
Sheri Scott (24:10):
Get ready (laughs).
Caleb Fetter (024:12):
I'm ready. I’m ready, I don't know what the day is going to bring, but let's go.
Marilyn Moedinger (24:16):
So, many of our listeners may not be in the luxury home space.So, what are some things that someone who isn't able to hire you guys for the full shebang, what would you advise homeowners who are like, "Hey, we're not going to be able to do it this way." What are some things we could still do to kind of access that level of professionalism, or just what are some things I can do in my house to make it a little bit better from your perspective?
Caleb Fetter (24:47):
Sure. You're just angling for some free consult here.
Marilyn Moedinger (24:51):
What do you mean?
[Laughter]
Caleb Fetter (24:55):
Well, so, I would flip it just the answer a little bit. We're not the only reputable or high-quality company available, there are plenty of really good companies all across the nation that when given the chance, and I would say that a little bit differently, because many people don't even give a company like us a chance to succeed on the tech side, in particular. Electrical has had a bit of a longer maturation period and there's life safety, and there's at least some regs depending on where you're building.
Traditional electrical services really haven't changed all that much when it comes down to receptacles and things like that, except for the fact that many things now can connect to the internet, like a whole home generator from Generac (no name brand intended) but it connects to Wi-Fi.
So, if the Wi-Fi doesn't extend to 10 feet outside of your domicile for regulatory reasons, then your Generac app doesn't stand a chance to work properly. And so, let's put a video doorbell outside of our front door where nobody thought to make sure Wi-Fi covers. So, then now my video doorbell doesn't stand a chance to actually work properly, and just on and on it goes.
So, I guess, regardless of budget, as long as it's reasonably viable within the context of everything else you're doing, make sure you work with a company that understands your goals and understands that you're willing to invest in the quality of experience, not just the cheapest price, because a lot of corners are cut to just get the sale, to get the tech in the home, they drive away never to be seen again for support because you're just going to need help someday when the internet doesn't work properly and you don't know why.
So, yeah, regardless of price point, there are plenty of companies that when given the chance would be able to deliver actually a pretty darn good experience, but they're often never in a position to be able to do so.
Marilyn Moedinger (27:05):
They're not getting the call early enough.
Caleb Fetter(27:07):
They're not getting the call early enough. And oftentimes, pricing is a lot more, I'll say misinformed, to make it not sound malicious. The idea that, well, what do you mean I have to spend $4,000 on all this wiring? I thought everything is wireless.
And the onus is on the integrator to educate and say, yes, while everything is wireless, it really shouldn't be wireless if we can get a wire to it. And so, there really has to be just open dialogue based around trust to allow a company to be able to do a good job.
Just like every other aspect of construction, you would never have a company build you a home that isn't investing in footers and proper foundations and rebar in the places that need rebar. Our world is not magic and pixie dust. It's science, it's engineering, it's real craft.So, anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to go long on that, but that's a really interesting question.
Sheri Scott (28:05):
How about the future? What do you think, what are changes coming? And my favorite question, what's AI doing to your industry?
Marilyn Moedinger (28:15):
That's everyone's favorite question.
Caleb Fetter (28:17):
Those are good topics or good questions and talking points. Funny enough, I think some of the biggest revolutions that we're going to see have mostly occurred or we're in the midst of occurring, and I hinted at that or talked about them earlier. LED lighting is a kind of once-in-a-lifetime revolution. I mean, the filament based light bulb, what was it, the ‘30s?
Marilyn Moedinger (28:44):
I think it's even earlier than that.
Caleb Fetter (028:47):
It had a good run, and all 999 of them that they invented that didn't work well, we ended up with one that did. There's nothing really behind LED as a general technology that is revolutionarily different.
So, we're seeing iterative improvements.We can now get a whole bunch of light out of a really tiny hole in the ceiling. Whereas four years ago, you had to have a five-inch aperture light, now we can get a thousand high quality lumens out of a one-inch hole in the ceiling.
So, when we use phrases like quiet ceiling, we don't want a bunch of Swiss cheese in our ceiling. But that's not revolutionarily different, we started really using LEDs 10 years ago, now we're just seeing refinement and improvements and more capabilities.
The other thing that I've talked about, and the way to describe it is they called it the internet of things. That simply means just all things will talk to the internet and we're now in the midst of that revolution: thermostats, doorbells, microwave ovens, refrigerators, cooktops.Our things are just now built to talk to the internet.
And so, to respond to that, your internet system needs to be able to handle that, and it needs to be engineered properly. Your internet all in one thing that you put in the office because that's where the cable guy installed it, can't possibly reach the Tesla that parks in the garage that actually updates software using Wi-Fi when it's parked.
So, those are revolutionary changes that we're in the midst of right now, they're already occurring.I don't really see anything behind those other than elevation of the craft. The tech side of the industry is really only about 30-years-old, if you think about truly integrated technology.
So, we're kind of in the adolescent stages, we're kind of in those ornery mid to late teen years where you got some that are walking the straight and narrow, and you got some that are out spray painting the bridge at three in the morning when you should be home studying for tests. (Laughter)
And I think the big revolutionary change that's going to come is just elevating that experience through conversations like this. Candidly, it's just awareness.
The AI conversation, that's interesting.We were utilizing it internally in our company, much less than I think people would assume because they hear, “You're tech guys, you're the AV guys.” Which, we're not just the AV guys, but we're using it for things that most architects would use it like database verifications and as our CAD set, all inclusive of all the devices that are on our device schedules.
I mean, we're using it for fairly mundane things internally. What I do see coming is human behavior and pattern recognition.Humans, although we think we're free spirited, are way creatures of habit.
Marilyn Moedinger (31:40):
Pretty predictable (laughs).
Caleb Fetter (31:43):
And so, we are working with some platforms. There is actually one that's quite notable. It's one of the only ones if I'm allowed to kind of name drop in here, there's a company … is that okay? Can I-
Marilyn Moedinger (31:53):
Whatever you're comfortable with.
Caleb Fetter (31:54):
Josh AI is a company out of Denver we've been working with for 11 years now; they're private.They originally went to market with voice control, which was much more of a novelty than I think they expected it to be. It's a neat layer if you have limited mobility- it's totally viable, it's very cool.
But people still just want a button. I just want to walk in the kitchen and hit a button. However, they are developing and have AI powered kind of software on the backend that really can dive into human behavior and pattern recognition.So, that the mundane tasks, you don't even have to ask the system to do it.
Marilyn has arrived home, you're not wearing an extra wearable, it just says, "Hey, your phone, Marilyn's phone is now on the Wi-Fi, that means she's obviously home and she likes the lights on at 60% and she loves smooth jazz when she walks in the door."We can do that. You push no buttons, you say no commands.It just knows you're home and it knows that that's the way you like it.
Sheri Scott (32:59)
You do that now or that's coming?
Caleb Fetter (33:00):
We have the ability to do that now.The downside with that, we do say there's a bit of over-automation because humans, although we're creatures of habit, we're also really moody and inconsistent. Inconsistent times.So, maybe Marilyn has a headache, maybe you just hate smooth jazz because you listen to it at the office all day.
Marilyn Moedinger (33:23):
It's time for the Zeppelin.
Caleb Fetter (33:25):
Right, we're jamming out or the” pre go out” on Friday, whatever that playlist is. So, I still try to say AI is a really unique kind of problem solver. It can be a little bit of a crack filler, but it is not the driving force in our industry that I see some people think it would be because I don't care what … all the ChatGPT are going to try to say our gray matter is still the best AI engine out there.
Our ability to walk in and just go, "You know what, I normally like the shades down, today, I just don't want them down." The industry can have a bad rap because we try to over automate things just because we can, and that certainly doesn't mean that you should.
Sheri Scott (34:08):
I think that's a great point.
Marilyn Moedinger (34:10):
I think that's also, that just because we can, doesn't mean we should.I also think that that's partially why this particular sort of segment of the building industry can feel particularly overwhelming. If you can dream it, it can be done, and that can feel very overwhelming.
Caleb Fetter (34:33):
It is. And it's completely open-ended. There's only so many colors on the Sherwin-Williams palette, but there's still a lot of colors. For us, it's infinite.
Marilyn Moedinger (34:42):
And I think also there's just the tendency sometimes to, in the face of all that overwhelm, to just default. And we were talking about earlier things that you kind of wish homeowners would do differently or whatever.And I've heard you say, for example, that puck lights are the bane of, exactly, for our listeners who aren't watching, (Caleb is) making all sorts of faces, anti-puck lights.
But the thing is that what happens is (and I see this with my clients all the time) that there's just an exhaustion that comes from making all the decisions and fine, like why does it matter? I'm just going to get these $25 puck lights and just stick them in and who cares? I can't tell the difference anyway.
And that is frustrating to all of us because we know that there are better ways and we know that the home experience, it's like you get to the end of the race and you stop a foot from the finish line.
Caleb Fetter (35:46):
And it's certainly not the product; it's the implementation of the product for me- is the funny faces because there are certainly viable $25 LED architectural lights.There are some that are quite nice at that price point that for the non-luxury market would be completely viable, and the puck light is just there because it doesn't obviously bump into framing, it's half inch thick, so you can put it in drywall anywhere.
And the problem often is that in the bidding world, especially in the cutthroat bid world, most of the trades aren't even really given a chance to do a good job.
Marilyn Moedinger (36:27):
That's a great point.
Caleb Fetter (36:30):
And then they get the bad rap. It's like, "Well, my lighting's ugly." It's like, well, there really wasn't enough budget and we're not talking 3x.Give them two meetings worth of billable labor to be able to come out and walk the house with you as it's being framed, but before drywall to just talk about where light fixtures go.
We're not talking about having to triple and quadruple budgets just to have nice lighting. It can be incremental, and it can bid the electrical scope, it's $35,000 on the job. Let them have 2% for administration, for meetings, for consult, and you'll be amazed at how much better your result would be, and I would challenge anyone that says they wouldn't see the difference is wrong.
Marilyn Moedinger (37:17):
I agree.
Caleb Fetter (37:18):
In the Hi-Fi world, I get a lot of clients that say, "Well, we're not audiophiles." And a lot of people really aren't audiophiles. But in the old days, when we would play a high-performance audio system or a kind of whatever audio system, the emotional response to their experience was very different. They might not have even been able to describe it where, "Oh, I hear more vocals or I hear more bass," you can see it in their face as they're experiencing it.
I mean, for anybody who has sight, sight is the number one sense for humans. It is how we take in the outside world. So, lighting is just such a big part of the conversation for that reason.
Marilyn Moedinger (37:57):
Absolutely. And the emotional side of it is very important too.
Caleb Fetter (38:02):
Well, it impacts your sleep cycles, it impacts how awake you are when you're working from home, it impacts your workout, it affects your emotional state. And the biggest challenge too, is the incandescent ball bed, the wonderful by-product of creating beautiful light, it worked like the sun.
So, colors, especially flesh like red, incandescent or filament-based bulbs did a wonderful job of rendering all these wonderful wood finishes on our skin. LED has to be manufactured to do that. And if you spec just one wrong color temperature, the whole thing just is ruined.
Sheri Scott (38:39):
Yeah, that is for sure.All part of the experience. So, Caleb, how long did you say you've been doing this?
Caleb Fetter (38:48):
The company is just now in its 25th year in business, and I am one year behind in the industry at 24.
Sheri Scott (38:54):
Okay, nice. So, you have a lot of experiences. What's your favorite thing about what you do and how you help people?
Caleb Fetter (39:03)
Oh, there's two that I don't know that I could pick which I like better.I guess the first one is … so every project we do, we meet the clients at the end, and really welcome them to their home. So, being in a position to watch that and be a part of seeing them kind of step into their home that they've dreamt of and worked so hard to build, just watching them experience it is probably my favorite.
The second is the creative part. We just have this unlimited creative opportunity now. LED lights are so small, you can have so much fun with them and we can light things very differently than we could a few years ago. So, the creative side of it is really fun for me personally.
Marilyn Moedinger (39:53):
That's a great answer. I think I can speak for Sheri pretty safely, and say that we share that joy seeing someone walking into their home and knowing how hard they've worked to make it to that moment, and we've been with them for the last part of that.
The actual design and construction, but oftentimes homeowners are imagining that moment for years or decades before they get to experience that, and to be there with them for that is really special.
Caleb Fetter (40:23):
I have a third favorite. I'll add this one really quickly.
[Laughter]
We get this really unique perspective because all of the stuff we do is connected. We have data that runs to the security cameras and to the TVs, and so, over the past 14 years, we've been building a very unique business model where when we're done, that actually starts the long-term support relationship. And so, we're the only trade that gets to stay in the house.
And our clients pay us for that annually, but what's fun is watching our clients reach out to our support team, and watching our support team be incredibly responsive to solve issues, and then watching that response from the clients who are just like, "Oh my gosh, you saved movie night, you saved … oh, I don't know how you guys do this, it's like magic, but you just fixed the thing."
And so, for me, building a very innovative business model that's around supporting clients after everybody else gets to go home and watching that work every time, it's really fun too-
[Laughter]
Marilyn Moedinger (41:26):
Yeah, solving problems for people in an ongoing basis, not just once and done.
Caleb Fetter (41:30):
Our long-term relationship and the vision statement's actually real with us. And so, we have clients that have been with us for 25 years, and they wouldn't go anywhere else.
Sheri Scott (41:39):
I feel like that's a great note to go out on.
Caleb Fetter (41:42):
If you can pick up, I can just talk about this for quite a while.
[Laughter]
Sheri Scott (41:48):
Thank you, Caleb.This was a great conversation, and you had a lot of points that I haven't considered and gave me some opportunity to have a better conversation with my clients when they come to me and say, "No technology, no apps (laughs)," because we need to get them to the conversation to make it better.
Caleb Fetter (42:14):
I mean, thanks you guys for allowing me to contribute to the conversation.I'll certainly jumping in anytime you guys want. This has been a lot of fun and I'm glad that I could maybe dispel a few myths, and maybe write a few wrongs that our industry unfortunately got wrong in the last 30 years and kind of hope for a different future going forward.
Sheri Scott (42:35):
Great.
Marilyn Moedinger (42:36):
That's what we're all trying to do around here. So, I'm really glad you could help us do that.
Caleb Fetter (42:40):
Yeah. Cool. Thank you.
(Transition)
Marilyn Moedinger (42:42):
Well, that was fun. We learned a lot, right?
Sheri Scott (42:45):
Yes. Yes, actually learned a lot, and it's good to talk to somebody outside of a true client relationship where everyone's trying to kind of not sell in a bad sense, but trying to achieve something.There's just so much more weight to it at that point. But to talk to him just in general about projects that he's done and how to frame the conversation with clients.
And I know we've talked about it on here before.So many of my clients now are like, "No technology, I'm sick of apps. I don't want to do it."But when you take it from a different perspective that he shared with us, not that we have to make our clients do it or convince them to do it, but it's just another part of the conversation. Like have you considered these things?
Marilyn Moedinger (43:41):
And by the way, when I did my own house a few years ago, three or four years ago now, I said all the same things. I don't want and I still don't want everything connected to the internet and all this kind of stuff.
And I think Caleb's point about that, that it can sometimes be a downfall of the industry where they're really focused on … it's an industry run by enthusiasts, I thought that was a really great point. So, finding someone to work with who isn't just trying to sell you gadgets, but is listening, that's what he said. Find someone who's listening to your goals and can help set you up for what you need.
And that goes back to one of the phrases that we repeat maybe weekly on this podcast, which is setting up the right team. You've got to find the people who are going to help you achieve your goals.
And things like not doing just the cheapest puck light ever but doing something that doesn't cost a lot of extra or maybe any extra, but just is a nicer lighting experience means that maybe it's not extra money you're spending, but it's just a little bit more time. It's a little bit more care.It's asking the electrician, "Well, what other options are there?"
There are the simplest things up to and including the amazing homes that he does with everything fully tricked out. But there's also technology also doesn't have to mean that, good lighting doesn't have to mean that. So, yeah, I think that's important.
Sheri Scott (45:09):
Coming in early, I mean, it's-
Marilyn Moedinger (45:11):
Can we underline that 25 times?
Sheri Scott (045:13):
I know, I know, but how many people can we get in the room that early? And I think he's right. I am not saying it's wrong, especially because they are willing to provide an early budget. I think that that makes sense to just do a preliminary design, get an early budget, and then establish your priorities from there, which you said very well.
Like maybe we're going to pull back on technology or we're going to rebalance some of the priorities that we thought we had because now this one's kind of floating more to the surface.
Marilyn Moedinger (45:51):
Absolutely. And I think helping people understand instead of just having that knee-jerk reaction — you know, him saying in order to create a wireless house, you need a lot of wiring.
Sheri Scott (46:03):
I liked that a lot.
Marilyn Moedinger (46:04):
But that's not something that the average person or even the average builder or architect or interior designer really fully knows and understands. And that's the start early part.
Like start early doesn't necessarily mean we have to do a wiring diagram on day two of the design, but it's saying, "Hey, guys, if it's important to you to have this type of system or to have these types of priorities, let's make sure that we're accounting for that in ways that are so simple early in the design, but that get really difficult as things go along."
Sheri Scott (46:37):
And the simple fact of organizing the trades because in my world anyway, a lot of times the electrician, while they're running their electric wires will run the-
Marilyn Moedinger (46:51):
Low voltage.
Sheri Scott (46:52):
All of the AV and yeah, the low voltage, thank you. They'll run the low voltage and we're conserving some energy there and compressing some timelines and it just makes sense.
Marilyn Moedinger (47:04):
Exactly. And I've learned from Caleb also that all the lighting controls are all low voltage.So, there's a whole other way of kind of thinking about how that works that it's not complicated, it's just a different way of thinking about it.
And so, bringing that to the table early means it's a half an hour-long conversation and everyone's like, "Oh, okay, that makes sense." And not later where you're ripping things out or trying to figure out how to shove things places.
I think the other thing too about the conversation around whether it's the puck lights or whether it's the easiest thing in the competitive bid environment, like we're just trying to go for the lowest thing, it doesn't matter,I can't tell the difference, let's just get the cheaper light, whatever, whatever. Sometimes what that also is about, is it's about what is easier for the builder and for the trades, not what is better for the house and better for the client.
And I found that over and over and over, it's very easy … like a puck light, for example, which we keep harping on or I keep harping on, it's half an inch thick, it doesn't get in the way of the framing, that it's not a better light fixture for experience, it's a better light fixture for ease of installation.
So, of course, that's why all the builders and electricians love them because they don't have to have complicated conversations about, “Well, here's a joist, we can't fit this or we can't center it, we have to do that.”So, there is some real value to that.
But I also think it's one of my big red flags. It's like something to always keep in mind, when is someone advising you to do something that is easier for them not better for you and the project, and that's always a moment to say, "Stop, hold on. I'm not doing this to make it easier for you.I'm not saying be a pain, I'm not saying whatever, but you should stand up for yourself and for what's best for the project."
Sheri Scott (49:09):
And to understand what the underlying meaning might be. I liked the conversation about where the future is, and I didn't realize that we're kind of in the middle of some of the bigger things.He noted LED lights and internet connection, the wireless part that everyone's thinking of.
And it kind of made me feel good because I feel like some of the people that are like, “No technology, none of this.” It's like all those horror stories are coming from the beginning of this revolution. And now, if we're in the middle of it, like we're really kind of dialing into it, and it just keeps getting better, and it will continue to get better.
I was glad to hear that from an industry professional that we're not jumping onto the next new thing in the next two years because that's what would put the brakes on. For me personally, if I were building a house, I'd be like, "Well, I'll just wait two years until the next best thing comes along."
Marilyn Moedinger (50:19):
Because I remember when we were putting iPod holders in houses, right?
Sheri Scott (50:25):
Right, right, the iPads on the walls?
Marilyn Moedinger (50:28):
Or no, the iPods where it would have a dock and you would put it in, and then it would go to your speakers.So, that was cool for a while, and it's not an expensive thing, and fine, they were obsolete after a few years, fine, whatever.
But to your point, some people I think hesitate to do anything "technology" because they're scared it'll be obsolete in two years, and they won't be able to get support, which is something Caleb was mentioning, they actually provide support for all this stuff.
So, I think that's something to consider as well. It's like, well, no, it's not going to be obsolete.There's always something that's newer, shinier, faster, better, but that doesn't mean that what you have is going to be obsolete in 18 months.
Sheri Scott (51:11):
And I do understand the other side of it too, where people, just from personal experience, I don't have any automation in my home, but we do have Siri from Apple, we have a little Apple pod that we talk to in the kitchen, like, "Hey, Siri set a timer, blah, blah, blah." And more days than not, we are cussing at Siri because she's not listening or she turned off the wrong thing.And we're like, "Stop, just stop, let me just do it."
Marilyn Moedinger (51:43):
And that's partially the idea of dialing in your technology approach. I actually switched my whole house back to wired speakers recently because it's been a project I've been working on because at the end of the day, I'm working with computers and technology and whatever all day long, the last thing I want to do is come home and fight with Bluetooth and interact with my phone, like I want to press a button and music comes out.
And so, in order to do that, a wired system is working really well for me. And I think that's back to his point about find the professionals who are going to work with you for what your goals are, and not put stuff on you that you're like, "This is not a good fit."And that's true for what we do too.
Sheri Scott (52:28):
Like us, he sits down and he takes the time to understand what their goals are and understand the people and how they work.And that makes all the difference. It really does. And it doesn't take that long; you just have to care about it. You just have to care enough to ask the questions and design around it.
Marilyn Moedinger (52:49):
You have to care as a professional enough to want to be that kind of professional, which is clearly how we run our business, that's how Caleb does his as well. And then as the homeowner, you have to care enough and also have enough of a backbone too. We've heard that from many of our guests over the last year.
Sheri Scott (53:06):
Say what you want.
Marilyn Moedinger (53:08):
Yeah. Stick up for what you want, it's your house. And especially when it comes to things like technology and integration and lighting, which are deeply — you're interacting with it every day in a way that's different than you're interacting with your insulation, for example (laughs).
Alright. Well, as we're wrapping up today, we just want to say a little side note here, a little announcement. So, Home: The Second Story is taking summer vacation.
Sheri Scott (53:35):
Yay!
Marilyn Moedinger (53:35):
Well deserved, we think.
Sheri Scott (53:38):
Yes, yes. After an entire year of solid recording. That's right.
Marilyn Moedinger (53:42):
That’s right. So, summer vacation means this will be our last episode until we are back in action with a full slate of episodes starting the day after Labor Day in early September.So, we'll be back then. We've already got stuff recorded. We'll definitely be back with some good stuff.
And also, we're taking a break from posting recordings, but we are not taking a break from working on things behind the scenes. So, that's a working summer vacation.
Sheri Scott (54:17):
Yes, maybe a little more relaxed.
Marilyn Moedinger (54:19):
A little more relaxed.
Sheri Scott (54:21):
And we are always looking for homeowners particularly to talk to people. The people we really want to talk to are ones that have done a significant renovation, a new build, something like that, that they've been in for a while, that they could have some hindsight.
The second story, which is where our name came from, so that the first story a lot of times is full of angst and curse words, and maybe the second story is more of looking back and lending some perspective to other people that are headed into the same kind of project.
Marilyn Moedinger (55:01):
We've got a lot of feedback from people that those are some of the most valuable moments for people for our listeners to hear. So, love to hear from anyone here who's interested in being a guest. And you can reach out while we're on summer vacation because we're still monitoring the email address.
Sheri Scott (55:21):
Absolutely. Thanks for joining us on Home: The Second Story. If you'd like to come on our show and share your story, email us at admin@htsspodcast.com. We'd love to have you as a guest. Be sure to rate and subscribe wherever you get podcasts and follow us on Instagram. We'll see you next time.
[Music Playing]
Voiceover (55:39):
Thanks for listening to Home: The Second Story Podcast. Feel free to share this episode with a friend. Contact information for both of our architects are in our show notes, and don't miss future episodes. Follow or subscribe to our show for free in Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you're listening right now.