In this episode of Home: The Second Story Podcast, we talk with Cindy, a homeowner and designer who built her second custom home—this time with a bold industrial modern aesthetic in Morrow, Ohio. Cindy walks us through her unique journey, from the early days of collecting design ideas in a journal back in 2011 to moving into her new home in September 2020, during the heart of the pandemic. Her deep design background, paired with a firm point of view, shaped a streamlined process where she collaborated closely with Sheri. They achieved a fluid design process with minimal revisions, thanks to Cindy’s preparedness and clarity.
We explore the challenges Cindy faced, especially the initial attempt to build in an HOA-controlled development that ultimately rejected her modern design. That experience pushed her to find a wooded plot free of HOA restrictions, allowing for creative freedom. Her story highlights the importance of understanding your non-negotiables and the power of walking away when your vision is compromised.
We discuss allowances—a vital, often misunderstood part of the building process. Cindy candidly shares how underestimating these line items can derail a budget. She emphasizes the need for early research, realistic estimates, and consistent communication with both builder and architect to stay on track.
Cindy also offers strong advice on designing around how you live. She had all her furniture and room layouts mapped out, making her new space feel intentional and cohesive. She credits this foresight with creating a home that fits “like a glove.”
Finally, Cindy reflects on her favorite part of the home—its dramatic exterior lighting. It's such a showstopper, it even distracted a student driver enough to crash into her mailbox. You've got to hear this story.
Voiceover (00:02):
Everyone says how horrible it'll be to renovate or build your house, we're here to say, it doesn't have to be that way.
Join three seasoned architects as they interview homeowners who recently completed a large project, and ask them one simple question: what do you know now that you wish you knew before you started?
Welcome to Home: The Second Story Podcast.
Sheri Scott (00:26):
Hi, and welcome to Home: The Second Story. We are three residential architects sharing real conversations with homeowners who've taken on custom home or renovation projects. If you haven't already, check out our first episode to hear more about us and why we're doing this. I'm Sheri Scott from Springhouse Architects in Cincinnati, Ohio. Joined by my co-hosts.
Marilyn Moedinger (00:50):
I'm Marilyn Moedinger of Runcible Studios in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and Boston, Massachusetts.
Taylor Davis (00:57):
And I am Taylor Davis of TPD Architect in Birmingham, Alabama. And today we are joined by our guest. Cindy, thank you for joining us. We are excited to have you today. Welcome.
Cindy (01:10):
Thank you.
Taylor Davis (01:10):
We're going to do a quick “first five” questions to get you oriented.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:15):
Yeah. So, let's dive right in. So, these are just a rapid fire to help everyone understand sort of your project and you a little bit. So, first of all, where is the project located?
Cindy (01:26):
The project is located — my home is in Morrow, Ohio, just a little north of Cincinnati.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:31):
Was the project a new build, addition, renovation?
Cindy (01:36):
It was a new project, a new build.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:38):
Cool. When did you start the project and when did you finish it?
Cindy (01:43):
My first meeting with an architect was fall of 2019, and I actually moved in September of 2020.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:52):
Wow. That's a very interesting time to be building.
(Laughter)
Cindy (01:56):
Yes.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:56):
I'm sure we'll get to that (laughs). What's the size of the house, the style? Just kind of like quick-
Cindy (02:05):
Sure. The style- kind of my vision for it was an industrial modern and the square footage of it, first and second floor is around 3000. And I'm currently actually finishing the basement, which will bring it up to about 4,000 square feet.
Marilyn Moedinger (02:21):
And our last question here in this intro session, there are a lot of different ways you can work with an architect from just sort of buying plans on the internet to working with someone for full services, from design through construction. How did you work with your architect on this project? And I guess you can also reveal who your architect was at this point.
(Laughter)
Cindy (02:41):
Okay. So, I actually started a journal in 2011, so I had a lot of clippings, and I have a design background. I had a vision of what I wanted to do from the very kind of get go. And I worked very closely with Sheri as my architect and I think it was a really good partnership because I came to the table as a designer myself, graphic design. I was able to bring a lot to the table and kind of shortcut a lot of things to get us there a lot faster.
Sheri Scott (03:14):
Yeah, I think that's true.
Marilyn Moedinger (03:16):
Very, very cool. Very cool. I love how you said you started in 2011 (laughs). A lot of people start way earlier than they even realize. I think that's a great point to bring up.
Taylor Davis (03:29):
So, we'll get started with some more in-depth questions. The first thing I think we'd love to know a little bit more about was what made you say, this is what I want to do? What was the catalyst that really brought about signing on with Sheri and thinking about this is the right time to do this?
Cindy (03:49):
Sure. This was my second house to build. My first house I designed and built in the late 90s, and that was more French provincial. And I had always had a heart as a designer for something a lot more modern.
And Dwell Magazine is kind of the pinnacle of that type of style that I loved. So-
Sheri Scott (04:10):
All of us.
Cindy (04:11):
Yeah (laughs). So, that started the journal and the clippings and all of that. It was really a matter of timing and how it was all going to come together. Selling my house in 2019 and then starting the process with Sheri to actually start formulating something much more … putting skin basically on the project at that point.
Taylor Davis (04:33):
So, you said it was new house. Is it suburban? Did you buy land first? Was it a tear down? What was on the property? Or did you find the property first? How did that process work?
Cindy (04:47):
That's kind of a long story, which I won't go into (laughs) because I had another property and Sheri helped with the design process with the HOA in that development. And that failed. We weren't able to get the house through the HOA. Realizing that I wasn't going to get to build the house I wanted and that development, I had to find other land.
So, the land that I did end up building on was fully wooded, gorgeous plot with a ravine all around my property. It's about an acre and three quarters. So, I actually got the land and then we took the plans from that other piece of property and retrofitted into this piece of property.
Taylor Davis (05:28):
So, did you have a builder on board at that point, or did the builder selection come a little later in the process?
Cindy (05:37):
Interesting. The lot that I picked out was earmarked- by contract, you had to use their builder. But I went through the whole builder process with them, and I wasn't happy with the meeting when I walked away. I was like, “I'm just not happy with this builder.”
So, then I went back online looking for land and literally four or five days earlier, the two-year contract had expired. And so, now I was able to bring my own builder and build on that lot. So, it all worked out timing wise perfectly.
Taylor Davis (06:11):
Well, you have kind of a little bit of a wavy line-
Cindy (06:15):
Yes, I do.
Taylor Davis (06:15):
In this whole process.
(Laughter)
Cindy (06:16):
Yes, I do.
Taylor Davis (06:17):
Love it. Love it.
Cindy (06:18):
Yeah.
Marilyn Moedinger (06:19):
Well, I just wanted to reflect back the sort of strength in your own convictions that you clearly have had. Whether it's the design, you said, you really want something modern. The HOA won't let you, so you're going to move on. The builder wasn't the right fit, so you're going to move on.
That takes a lot of guts and a lot of knowing what is going to make you happy. I'm sort of curious how you kind of found your way to hold your ground like that. How did you do that? How did you decide that these are that important, that you're going to make these big decisions like that?
Cindy (06:52):
I think having that journal put together initially, because I really had a very strong POV. And I was working with another architect with this other builder, and they continually designed modern farmhouses. And the architect kept bringing me farmhouse windows and I kept saying, “How many times am I …
I kept showing them pictures and I'm like, “You're just not getting it,” He was more of a journeyman, I would say, a journeyman architect. He was not forward thinking; he wasn't bringing anything new to the table. I felt like I was spoon feeding the situation. It was very, very frustrating.
And as a designer I think, you know your POV and you're like, “These are hills I'm going to die on and these are other things I'm going to let go.” And the design to me was so critical to it. I wasn't going to give up adding a window or doing something that the HOA wanted me to do because it was always going to be something nudging and changing to get it to where they wanted it to be.
So, yeah. So, I think to answer your question, I don't know if I did, I kind of roundabout.
Marilyn Moedinger (08:00):
I love everything you're saying (laughs).
Cindy (08:02):
So, I think finding a place where there is no HOA is so critical. If there is something you want to do unique to your home, not in a freakish way, but within beautiful architectural standards. Something unusual I think should be accepted in a neighborhood. But without an HOA is so restricting to so many things.
Marilyn Moedinger (08:26):
Yeah. And I just want to jump in and explain in case anyone doesn't know what an HOA is, the homeowners association. So, in some developments or in some situations, if it's a condo building and you're renovating one of the condos in the building, then this association has a ton of power over you. And sounds like you ran straight into that and decide it wasn't worth it (laughs).
Cindy (08:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Taylor Davis (08:48):
And different HOAs have different structures, so there may be some that are more restrictive in their covenants and some that are less so. So, it may be a question of finding the right fit too, because there are some that are a lot more flexible.
Cindy (09:01):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Sheri Scott (09:02):
Yeah. And understanding that before you buy the lot, I've had that so many times with clients and there are two paths. Either you can settle and design your house the way they want to see it, which for some people that's not their priority, so it's okay. They actually want to be in that neighborhood.
But like for Cindy, the design was clearly her priority, so she moved on. And got a much better beautiful lot. It's amazing. You guys should see it.
Taylor Davis (09:36):
So, I want to dive in a little bit. I think it's so interesting to hear your point of view on this because the design process for you may be very different from somebody who's not in a design industry.
And so, your path is really sort of clear and directed. And I think that's really interesting and how you and Sheri worked together, I think it can be really instructive for people. You said you started in 2011 with your binder. And I'm such a binder person. The fact that you mentioned the word binder is like, that's fantastic.
Anyway, so did you have an … I mean, you were in a different house before that, so 2011 is when you really sort of buckled down and said, this is kind of what I want to do.
Was that process — other than the locating where the house was going to be and the HOA and the builder from a design perspective, was the process sort of linear? Was it more kind of back and forth? How was your revisions process, what did that look like to you?
Cindy (10:46):
So, I think I was trying to think back at how many revisions we had. And I think I could maybe … I mean, aside from the HOA because that was not our relationship changes. Outside of the HOA, I can only think of maybe one revision.
It seemed like when she and I sat down for the very first time, I had all the measurements of my furniture, I knew exactly what rooms I wanted. I mean, it was kind of pre-designed in that respect. It was, now let's put this beautiful skin on it.
And the things that Sheri brought to the table were things that I had not thought about from — because I'm a 2D designer and she's 3D. So she adds a whole different spatial relationship to walls and furniture and how the room flows. And so, that I think was a really beautiful relationship of, I was really interested in surfaces and textures and how they would react to each other.
So, I think it was very much a linear process. And my other house was filled with antiques and all kinds of collectibles, as you would say. And slowly as I knew where I was heading, I started replacing furniture with what was going to be in my new home.
So, eventually when I was ready to make that actual move, it was very seamless. It was like I had all the furniture, I knew exactly where it was going to go. And I've had so many people tour my home from my builder. I'm like their model house.
And everyone walks in and says, “Your house fits like a glove.” And I said, “That's the biggest thing,” knowing your furniture sizes and planning how you live. I have a neighbor that moved in, and you walk into their house and unfortunately it just looks like a box, and they've got furniture up against walls and it doesn't feel planned.
And I think that's the advice would be try to think about where you're going to live, how you're going to live in your house, and if you have your sizes, your furniture, super important.
Taylor Davis (12:49):
And I would echo communicating those sizes to your architects because there have been times … communicating, the link in that is knowing and then communicating.
(Laughter)
Marilyn Moedinger (13:01):
Sometimes we will learn very late in the process about special piece of furniture.
Taylor Davis (13:09):
I don't speak from experience or anything, but you know (laughs).
Cindy (13:13):
Understood.
Marilyn Moedinger (13:14):
You were talking about surfaces and the 2D and 3D and sort of thinking and texture and that kind of stuff. What about your sort of own experience, combined with working with Sheri, brought out some things that you wouldn't have thought on your own or she would not have thought of on her own? How did the 2D and 3D kind of come together in some unique ways because of your collaboration together?
Cindy (13:43):
I think one of the things in the, from a design perspective that Sheri added to the house was this wall on the outside. And I mean, I kind of came with these are the things I like board poured concrete, Shou Sugi Ban, those types. I love just raw concrete.
So, integrating those types of things into the house was not something I — I didn't know how we could do that. And Sheri had included this beautiful feature wall on the front of the house. It has no functionality other than the fact that it's just gorgeous and it's adding textures like that in the house.
She also added because of the industrial modern I-beams that are support for the porches, just raw. They're painted black, but they're not enclosed. It's raw materials like that that I think she really brought my vision of industrial modern to just this beautiful level.
Marilyn Moedinger (14:46):
Very cool.
Taylor Davis (14:48):
Kudos, Sheri.
Sheri Scott (14:49):
Thank you, Cindy. Thank you (laughs). I love this podcast. This is great.
(Laughter)
Taylor Davis (14:59):
Okay. So, we've got our one big question, and this is what we ask everyone, and it's kind of the heart of what we are trying to do here, which is knowing what you know now, is there anything you would do differently?
Cindy (15:14):
Well, I think I learned a lot second time around. And I think it's true even in the second journey of building another house, the biggest thing that I think all homeowners need to take into consideration are the builder's allowances.
I think that is one of the biggest miscommunicated pieces in the entire journey. I think meeting with your builder and your architect and saying, “These are the levels of things I want. I want to have finishes that are … if you're into granite or marble or whatever that is. Or I want specific light fixtures.
If there's something that is really elevated. Because I've learned working with two different builders that both of these experiences were challenging in the allowance stages, you get a set allowance and then you walk into a lighting store.
And the first time I walked, I'm like, “I'm not going to look at my budget. I'm just going to pick out everything I want.” And I was $15,000 over budget. And I hadn't even found all my light fixtures yet.
Sheri Scott (16:20):
That doesn't feel good, does it?
Cindy (16:22):
It doesn't feel good. And then you're like, “That was my first stop.” And I'm like, “Oh my gosh, what is the plumbing going to feel like? What is the flooring going to feel like?”
And so, my second experience, those were some of the big questions that I asked from the very get go. I'm like, “I want to make sure there's budget in here for hefty items.” Because lighting specifically is so, so critical.
And you could spend $1,200 on one light and that is the feature in that room, and you can dial other things down. But from a budget perspective, I think that's definitely something to ask. Always ask, what are the budgets in these areas?
And then do a little homework. If you like a certain style, just go online and start randomly picking things and start adding it up. And just to get a litmus test on where you're going to be from your own budget.
Sheri Scott (17:15):
Yeah. And that is something that not only the builder, but the architect can help with from the beginning. Because we've had enough experience with different builders and different styles of homes and things like that because your style was pretty unique.
And I think that I want to say the builders do their best. I always hear that builders lie about allowances and then everybody gets upset during the process. But you really do have to start somewhere and just put a number on a piece of paper.
But that can't be the end of the conversation. You have to keep talking about it and say, “Okay, these are our numbers to get to this final number that I told you was my budget. Now tell me what I can get for those.”
If that's not acceptable to me. How do we change that? Do we change the bottom line? Do we mix the allowances up? Do I do some things in cash on my own? There are a lot of ways to get around it, but if you don't talk about it, you're not going to get it fixed and then everybody's going to be mad.
Marilyn Moedinger (18:30):
Yeah. It's very true. And I wanted to add another shade to that, which is to say we actually give our builders allowances. We tell them what I want them to hold in the budget, because I know-
Sheri Scott (18:45):
We just started doing that Marilyn.
Marilyn Moedinger (18:46):
And you know what, the builders love it because then they don't have to put a number out there and be really wrong or be laughed at or someone's mad at them. So, we just say “We want to hold X dollars. And I've already talked it over with my client. I already have an idea of the kind of stuff they're looking at.”
And that actually really helps. It takes the pressure off everybody. And then when we're getting bids from multiple builders, they're looking at the same list of allowances. So, that same chunk of stuff is the same on every sort of bid. And we don't hard bid, but just when we're talking to multiple builders looking at a project.
So, I love that answer, Cindy, about allowances. I think that's so crucial. It's one of those things that you're not going to find at the top of a Google search of things you should talk about. So, I appreciate you surfacing that.
Taylor Davis (19:35):
We might even want to circle back and define what allowances are, because I think if you're doing a project for the first time, it may not even be clear what an allowance is. Because it's not like it's self-explanatory. It's one of those weird construction terms that gets thrown around and people don't quite know what they are.
So, in our world, an allowance is a number that a contractor holds in his budget for a certain line item of that budget. And that may be for anything from finishes that we're planning on selecting down the road, to an allowance for, we're about to do a renovation and dig into the ground and we don't know how far we're going to have to dig. That's what an allowance is. And so, I think that might be helpful for people to sort of get a better sense of what that term is.
You were a well-prepared client and builder, Cindy, you had experience, you knew what you wanted, you came into it. You talked about the allowances. Was there anything else that would be helpful information to share with people who are embarking on this process?
Cindy (20:47):
I think thinking about how you're going to live in your home is so, so critical. I think people think, well doesn't everybody have a dining room? Doesn't everybody have a study? The traditional homes have changed so dramatically from much more open really utilizing all the living space.
And I think that's really critical for people to think about from a family perspective. If you have dogs, now they're making dog washing areas in your home. I think all of those things are really, really important to bake in so that when you do go to sit down with an architect and speak for the first time.
I know with Sheri I had a top list of these are my must haves and these are my wants. And trying to get as much as you can on paper. And that's something that you can — maybe it's a Google Doc you're sharing with your architect that's living and evergreen and as you think of things you added.
But I think the earlier you can get in that stage of conversation with as much research and information you have, the better you're going to be on the long end.
Marilyn Moedinger (21:56):
Yes, I agree. And underline that a hundred times. And I'm curious (laughs) also, we've talked a lot about the design process and that kind of stuff. I'm curious about how construction was for you even under the umbrella of our big question of knowing what you know now or things you learned specifically surrounding construction, like when things are underway.
Cindy (22:23):
We didn't really run into any issues. I'm very much hands-on and I mean, I was here on site pretty much every day. I think the anomaly was my house was actually built during COVID, which was crazy.
And to go in such a short amount of time, we only ran into a few problems, but it didn't delay obviously. The cabinets were coming from Italy. Italy had shut down full production, so we were kind of at a standstill there. Ran into some problems with product of the flooring, but for the most part, everything kind of moved as scheduled. I can't really say we had any stop issues.
Sheri Scott (23:05):
So, Cindy, when that happened, did you pivot and pick different materials, or did you wait it out?
Cindy (23:12):
Well, you know I'm pretty strong on my POV.
(Laughter)
Sheri Scott (23:16):
I could guess what the answer is.
Cindy (23:19):
No, I waited. Yes, I waited. I was like, this is going to happen. It's going to happen. And because at that point, I mean, everything had been built around and designed. I did have one thing that was kind of funny. My refrigerator, which is this big double wide side by side and the distributor that had ordered it said, “Yeah, we have it.”
Well then, the builder called and said, “Okay, you can bring the appliances.” And they said, “Oh, we forgot. We didn't pull one back for you, but you can buy another one.” But it was double the price. Double.
Marilyn Moedinger (23:51):
No, no, no, no, no.
Cindy (23:53):
And I was like, no. So, for a two-hour period, we were in absolute freakout mode. And then the builder ended up calling them and I was calling them. And anyway, they called back, and they said, “Oh, it was our mistake. We actually do have one for the price you bought it for.”
So, yeah, little things like that you just have to kind of roll with it. But I think being on site is super helpful because both homes that I've built, there are windows put where they're not supposed to be, doors end up where they're not.
I mean, it's human nature. It just happens. And not to get freaked out about that kind of stuff, it's like, it's all fixable, but being on site is really, really important. And if you're not on site, you need your architect on site because somebody needs to be there continually looking at the process.
Sheri Scott (24:41):
As your advocate. Right?
Cindy (24:43):
As your advocate.
Sheri Scott (24:44):
Either yourself or somebody else. Yeah. I agree. And you were there to answer questions, so the builder wasn't making stuff up right along the way. Right?
Cindy (24:54):
Exactly. Yeah.
Sheri Scott (24:55):
Yeah.
Marilyn Moedinger (24:55):
Sometimes people think that being on site, whether it's the owner or the architect, is kind of an adversarial moment or we're watching over you or anything. It doesn't have to be like that, what you just said about mistakes happen and that's human nature and we're all looking out for each other.
This is our project as a team, architect, builder, owner. We all want what's best for the project if you've got a good team. So, I appreciate how you kind of framed that a little bit. It's not just you're out there with your tape measure checking on them, expecting them to be wrong.
But just another set of eyes, another set of checks and balances. I think that's really healthy to think about it that way on a project, not just in an adversarial way. I think that's kind of the narrative sometimes.
Taylor Davis (25:40):
And especially because as you said, human nature, if somebody's there and we can catch the glitch early, we're not spinning our wheels on the back end trying to figure out how do we solve it when the drywall's up and the electrical is in and the plumbing's done. The earlier we can attack some of those things that come up naturally in the field every day, the better off everyone is.
Cindy (26:04):
Absolutely.
Marilyn Moedinger (26:05):
I want to ask one more question maybe as we kind of come in for a landing here, which is, what thing or space or aspect of your house do you walk into or witness or see that every time you see that you're just like, “I love that. I'm so glad I did that.” It sounds like a lot of the house may be that way, but what's a special moment that you have in the house?
Cindy (26:33):
Yeah, I do wake up every day and I still pinch myself. I can't believe I get to live in a Dwell house because that's what it feels like to me. But I lived here for maybe about four or five months, and I realized when I would come in at night, my house was very dark, the outside of it was very dark.
And so, one thing I had never even budgeted or even thought about was lighting on the outside of it. And I hired a company to come in and they do a live demonstration of lighting on your home at night, and they move the lights, and they're like, “What about this? What about this?”
And creatively, there's three windows on the concrete wall. So, we put three offset lights on the blank area where the concrete was. And that is the one thing I drive home anytime. I mean, it gives me goosebumps. I pull into my little cul-de-sac and my house looks like … it literally looks like a piece of art because it has these asymmetrical gables on it.
And we added this beautiful built out that creates a shadow box. And so, the lighting just cascades up the front of the house. I mean, it's just spectacular. And I actually, funny (anecdote), I lost my mailbox a couple months ago. Somebody literally ran over it. And so, my neighbor checked on her camera and it was a driving school and a student driver.
(Laughter)
And she was looking at my house.
(Laughter)
Sheri Scott (28:02):
And lost control of the car.
Cindy (28:04):
As well as the teacher. They both were like … and they literally ran over my mailbox. And now my mailbox, of course, is not your normal mailbox, it's stainless-steel pole and very architectural. So, that was not a very inexpensive accident, let's put it that way (laughs).
Taylor Davis (28:21):
No, but the intent behind — I mean, not the intent, the causer for it was like-
Sheri Scott (28:29):
We can't blame them. Can't blame them.
Cindy (28:30):
The teacher came and — well, they left the scene, didn't leave any information. So, I called the police, I'm like, I probably have to have a report to get it paid for, for insurance. And anyway, eventually the driving instructor came up to my house and he was so embarrassed.
He goes, “Yeah, we both were looking at your house.” And she just ran right over it. I was like, “Oh, well that's kind of good, I guess, but …
Taylor Davis (28:54):
I'm so sorry. But I still love that story. I think that's really good. It's terrible, but I do love that story.
Cindy (28:59):
So, kudos Sheri. Kudos.
(Laughter)
Sheri Scott (29:00):
Yes, yes, yes. I want to share that Cindy is an amazing artist and does art shows with her welding art. So, could you tell us a little bit about that?
Cindy (29:13):
Sure. So, in my house, I had several pieces of fabrication made. I have steel doors that open into my master bathroom, and I have steel railing in my staircase. And it was a friend of mine who was doing the fabrication and he invited me over to see how it was progressing, and he said, “Do you want to weld?” And I was like, “Okay.”
So, I got to weld and then I walked out of there and I'm like, “I think I'm going to do this.” So, I went to school and got MIG certified, and now I do welding art. And then I now bought a jewelry welder and I weld through a microscope and make jewelry.
Sheri Scott (29:52):
Oh, I didn't know that stuff.
Cindy (29:54):
Yeah. So, that's a whole new thing.
Marilyn Moedinger (29:58):
Cindy, I want to be you when I grow up.
(Laughter)
Cindy (30:04):
So, but it's funny that the journey of my house sent me to that because I had no interest in welding whatsoever. But-
Sheri Scott (30:11):
How would you know? It just opens up different possibilities. Well, thank you so much, Cindy. I really appreciate you giving us your time and sharing your experience with other people.
(Transition)
Taylor Davis (30:23):
That was a fun one.
Sheri Scott (30:24):
It was.
Taylor Davis (30:25):
I loved hearing Cindy's story and hearing about her house and of course all of her enthusiasm for her spectacular architect.
(Laughter)
But I do want to do a little recap and talk about what she said and maybe process that a little bit. One thing I think all of us should talk about, I think because that process is interesting, is the allowance and builder and what happens when, and selecting and finishes, that was something that she brought up and I think it's so different in people's practices and different houses and stuff.
So, I think that might be something that I'd like to sort of talk about a little bit.
Sheri Scott (31:02):
Yeah. Well, I'll share first and describe what Cindy's process was. And we do it two different ways in my office, but the way Cindy's process was really we did a permit set for her, and she took all of that to her builder.
And because she is an artist and she had her binder, she just knew exactly what she wanted. She already had her furniture, all those things she described, it just made sense for her to go ahead and do those selections and do those things.
I think she checked in with us a few times, which we always encourage, but with the allowance numbers, I know the builder that she worked with does a fixed fee project. So, in those projects, the fixed fee is based on all of the building parts. Anything that the client doesn't really make any choices on is in the fixed fee.
Then the allowances, there's probably 10 of them are the things that the client can pick. And so, they can go over or under or hit that budget, but they're in control of those selections and what that price ends up being, because that is something that a builder cannot nail.
They can figure out how much lumber you need and what that's going to cost, but they have no idea what light fixtures you want, like she mentioned. So, that's a struggle for every builder, and I do feel for them in that part.
And I think Marilyn, I probably learned that from you to give the builder the allowances at least a starting off point because then at least there's some collaboration and there's not one person to point a finger at, and we're just all trying to help make the best project we can.
Marilyn Moedinger (32:57):
Yeah. And where I learned to do that is because I was a builder before I was an architect. So, fun fact (laughs). So, when I used to get drawings from architects and they would be like three pages long and then I was supposed to put together a fixed price for it, I was like, “Okay, well yeah, I can count up the sticks and bricks, but I don't know …
And you know what every single person says when you say “What level of finish,” they all say the same thing.
Sheri Scott (33:25):
I’m so simple.
Marilyn Moedinger (33:25):
Like mid-range.
Taylor Davis (33:27):
We don't want gold-plated cabinets (laughs).
Marilyn Moedinger (33:30):
I don’t want gold-plated. That's what everyone says.
Taylor Davis (33:31):
I don't want gold.
Sheri Scott (33:33):
Everyone says that.
Marilyn Moedinger (33:33):
I don’t want gold-plated. By the way, ladies and gentlemen, Taylor and I are in opposite parts of the country and people are saying the same thing.
(Laughter)
Taylor Davis (33:43):
Same thing. Everybody says the same thing.
Marilyn Moedinger (33:46):
So, then they say, “I don't want gold plated, I don't want the fancy stuff. It's just going to be really simple.” But you don't know until you get into it that then you find out that someone's version of simple is the Sub-Zero fridge is $15,000 and someone else's version of simple is the thousand dollar fridge, that is the old beer fridge that goes in the garage.
So, when I was a builder, I loved it when architects would give me more information, I don't want to guess and make the owner upset or lose money or have tough conversations later. So, that's where I learned to do it. So, that's why I do it now.
Taylor Davis (34:22):
The thing that I would say is kind of something for people to think about if they're starting this process, we actually pick all that stuff...
Marilyn Moedinger (34:31):
Yes.
Taylor Davis (34:31):
...in preliminary pricing. So, we are going with our clients to pick the plumbing fixtures and pick the tile and to pick all of those things early in the process. And that way if we need to make adjustments in the pricing, once we get that back, we've got time and budget and scope to be able to kind of do that.
So, the earlier you can make those selections and get them into your pricing, the better off you're going to be. Because you may need a back pocket option that's not the gold-plated version. You may need something that's simpler once you get the rest of your numbers back and you can make some decisions at that point: is this tile the most important thing or do I want to take five square feet off the back of our addition?
So, the earlier you have it, the more flexibility you have to be able to make choices about what you want to pay for and what you don't want to pay for. And so, that would be kind of my advice based on what we talked about, which is the earlier — whether it's you, whether it's your architect, whether it's your interior designer, builder, whomever, the earlier you can make those selections, the much better off you will be in terms of being able to have that flexibility in your pricing.
Marilyn Moedinger (35:48):
Well, and often if you leave the selections to the builder or you leave the selections to the builder to tell you when they need them, they're going to tell you a week before, because they're really busy building your house (laughs).
So, they're going to say, “Oh my gosh, I need all the plumbing fixtures, and we need to place the order this week or else we're going to be late.” You don't want to be picking all that stuff in, I always call it, “the heat of battle.”
You want to be doing that well before when things are calm, when your house isn't completely destroyed or in a renovation and everything's ripped up or everything; it's stressful. So, I think, that's another thing that I wanted to kind of talk about that Cindy brought up, was this idea of understanding what really matters to you and sticking by that.
She said it in such a great way about: think about the way you live in your house or the way you want to live in your house. So many people, and I think we had another guest at one point, say, “Designing a house as a reaction against wherever else you've also lived.”
And I think that's something to remember. So, when you are thinking about your house as an owner, you don't just want to say, “Well, we need a living room, we need the dining room, we need a garage, we need this, we need this, we need this.”
And then start putting the boxes together. And then you realize, “Well, I don't use my front door, I only use my mudroom door, so why do I even have this front door with a big formal entry? I don't even use that.”
So, understanding how you live, and I think this is where architects really shine because we ask those questions and we say, “Wait a second, you're telling me you've got three dogs and four kids and whatever, and you don't have a mudroom and a dog washing spot and whatever, you're telling me you don't have any of that.”
Well, maybe they hadn't thought of that. They're not thinking how they live in a house. They're thinking of every house they've ever seen before. So, I think that advice, not just make a list of rooms, but think how you live in a house.
Taylor Davis (37:49):
What's the narrative? Because the narrative is what we design around. As much as we design around all the other things too, the narrative, we can make the other stuff fit. Like we can make the skin work, we can make the style work, we can make the HVAC work, but the narrative has got to work.
Marilyn Moedinger (38:04):
Tell us stories about what does Christmas morning look like? What does Thanksgiving look like? What does a birthday look like? What does everything … tell us stories. Don't solve the problem for us. We'll come and meet you with that.
Taylor Davis (38:18):
So, when I first started on my own, I worked for a family in New Jersey and it was a big Catholic family, and they had a house with a tiny little dining room, and they had all their huge extended family over every week for Sunday dinner.
And so, we went to do a renovation, they definitely needed more space. And I was like, “Okay, we're going to make this really big dining room and we're going to put it in the center of the house.”
And all I had gotten out of that narrative was that we have people over for Sunday dinner, and I didn't ask any further questions. So, we put the dining room in the middle of the house and where the dining room was, I made it into this study- like paneling and a library and all this sort.
And I couldn't figure out like, they were so not into it, not their thing, didn't like it. It was so painful to me because I was like, “This is the perfect room. Why would you not want this?”
Well, the truth was they didn't like to read. They had no reason for a study. I didn't ask any further questions about, “Do you want a study here?” They really liked being all jam packed into that little bitty dining room. And they loved that experience, and they laughed about it, and that's what they told their stories about.
So, I didn't ask enough questions to get the full narrative in that situation, and it really ended up being a mismatch. And we had to do some redesign work because I wasn't doing my job very well.
And so, I think that was a real lesson to me to keep pushing and asking for the narrative, because I don't want to give you a study if you don't have books. That doesn't make any sense. That's on my side, like that's us as an architect. There's some onus on us to do that too.
Marilyn Moedinger (40:01):
Yeah, I agree.
Sheri Scott (40:03):
One other thing I wanted to touch on with Cindy was the HOA experience. I have this so often with clients around here, there's a lot of available land in HOA communities and some people buy it and they know there's an HOA fee, but they don't dig in and see what the rules are that the HOA has laid out.
And there are design rules, there are roof pitch rules, there are material rules, there are setback rules. Some of them are crazy. I only say they're crazy because they say they're custom home communities. And to me a custom home is whatever the client wants.
But some of these communities actually dictate a style that it has to be. Cindy got caught up in that and we did design one house that kind of sort of might pass but it didn't. We could have continued to change roof lines and change materials and give them a little bit more stone.
But luckily, she just found a different place that did not have an HOA, and just to save people that pain. If you love the neighborhood and you want to be there, just know you might have to make some compromises. And you just need to know what you are willing to do when we're designing that house, it's very important.
Marilyn Moedinger (41:37):
Yeah, it's your house, not my house (laughs).
Taylor Davis (41:40):
Thanks so much for joining us again on Home: The Second Story. If you enjoyed today's conversation, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review, hopefully a positive one. And for more inspiring homeowner stories and tips, we will see you next time.
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