In this episode of Home: The Second Story, we sit down with Martin, a homeowner from New Orleans who recently undertook a full gut renovation of his early-1900s home. What started as a kitchen and bathroom update turned into a complete interior overhaul, taking the house down to the studs. Martin shares how his historic neighborhood, building codes, and local governance shaped what he could and could not do with his 120-year-old home. This includes the HDLC, which luckily for him, did not apply to his side of the street.
We learn about the impact of local knowledge. Martin’s team — his architect, contractor, and interior designer — all brought vital expertise, not just in design but in navigating the humid, termite-prone climate of New Orleans. He explains how important it was to plan for moisture, termites, and drainage, and how ignoring those realities can spell disaster later. The conversation reveals how Martin’s house went through decades of additions, from a porch removal to a spiral staircase that eventually forced a rethinking of the entire layout. Removing that staircase alone triggered cascading design changes that ultimately transformed the scope of the build.
Martin admits that while his architect’s attention to detail made the project possible, he underestimated the importance of involving a landscape architect from the start. The lack of one led to frustrating misses, like concrete planters that didn’t quite fit and last-minute improvisations for utilities. He underlines the value of a clear budget from day one — not having one wasted time and caused sleepless nights as costs rose and scope shifted. He urges future homeowners to anchor their dreams to a realistic budget early and to be prepared for the emotional ups and downs that come with any major renovation.
We follow Martin’s path through a contractor switch — a tough but necessary move when the first builder couldn’t align on a clear estimate or timeline. He emphasizes how crucial it was to find a contractor experienced with historic houses in his specific neighborhood. Trust and local reputation made all the difference, ensuring the project stayed aligned with local techniques and challenges.
Despite the anxiety and stress, Martin circles back to the reward: walking into a home that truly works for his family. He paints a picture of the foyer with its local art, the intentional smell that greets visitors, and the kitchen that brings people together — the real heart of their home. As he tells it, the payoff is that snapshot of friends and family gathering, the kids growing up in a home designed with care, and a renovation that, in the end, feels worth every bit of chaos.
Martin Full Show
Speakers: Sheri Scott, Taylor Davis, Marilyn Moedinger, & Martin
[Music Playing]
Voiceover (00:03):
Everyone says how horrible it'll be to renovate or build your house — we're here to say it doesn't have to be that way.
Join three seasoned architects as they interview homeowners who recently completed a large project, and ask them one simple question: what do you know now that you wish you knew before you started?
Welcome to Home: The Second Story Podcast.
Sheri Scott (00:27):
Hi, and welcome to Home: The Second Story. We are three residential architects sharing real conversations with homeowners who've taken on custom home or renovation projects. If you haven't already, check out our first episode to hear more about us and why we're doing this.
I'm Sheri Scott from Springhouse Architects in Cincinnati, and I'm joined by my co-hosts-
Taylor Davis (00:48):
I'm Taylor Davis of TPD Architect in Birmingham, Alabama.
Marilyn Moedinger (00:51):
And I'm Marilyn Moedinger of Runcible Studios in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and Boston, Massachusetts, and today, we're joined by Martin from New Orleans. Hi.
Martin (01:00):
Hey, y’all. How we doing?
Marilyn Moedinger (01:03):
So glad you're here. We're going to dive right in with some quick questions just to get everyone oriented to your project. Where is your project located?
Martin (01:11):
My project is in New Orleans, Louisiana, which is where I live with my family and where I'm from. I was born and raised here.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:19):
Was the project a new build, addition, renovation, what did you do?
Martin (01:23):
I don't know the right terms for this. It definitely wasn't a new build. So, I don't know what's the difference between a rehabilitation or renovation or there's another word — we just called it a full gut. That's what we did.
Taylor Davis (01:37):
Oh, perfect. That works.
Martin (01:37):
It started out as just we were going to redo the kitchen and bathrooms. You know this story; you’re architects.
Marilyn Moedinger (01:44):
I do.
Martin (01:45):
And then it became down to the studs, full gut renovation. So, the house was built in 1905, whatever, 120 something, 130-year-old house, and we took it down to the studs and totally reimagined with an eye for trying to preserve some of the elements of the original design, and I'm sure we'll talk about some of the design decisions behind that.
But New Orleans is an old city; there's an organization called the HDLC, which is the Historic District Landmarks Committee, something like that, and there's a board that reviews. And so, you can get HDLC — especially if you're doing any sort of tax credits for the renovation, you can get all of these subsidies.
We didn't do any of that for a few reasons. Number one, the district that we're in, we're literally, I'm looking across the street, you can qualify for HDLC, we don't. So, we're in what's called the University district. And so, I don't know enough about local politics to know why that side of the street qualifies and this one doesn't.
But the other thing is when the HDLC has governance over your project, they scrutinize every last... I'm sure you guys know this better than I do. But it's like what shape is your mantle or what type of wood? Is it original Spanish cypress on the windows? And all the rest of the stuff.
So, we didn't do any of that. It was a relatively modern construction, but the design was mostly in line with what the original architecture was.
Sheri Scott (03:20):
So, I'm curious here, a lot of the historic districts will only deal with the exterior of the building. Did they do the interior of yours as well?
Martin (03:30):
No. So, we did not do HDLC, it was a standard just renovation project.
Marilyn Moedinger (03:35):
But if you were across the street, they would've made you do it.
Martin (03:37):
They would, yeah. Certainly for the outside. And even still to get the building permit, you have to comply with what the local building code is. And so, they will come through and they look at the exterior. It's not construction documents; it's like the permit docs … what's the architect? Permit set has some of the exterior renderings. And so, had we wanted to get the HDLC credits, then we would've had to go through that, but we decided not to.
Mostly because in hindsight, I thought the project would go faster than what it did, and we wanted to move in quickly. I'm kind of kicking myself, I wish I would've gotten the tax credits because the project would've been a whole lot cheaper.
Marilyn Moedinger (04:17):
Well, that leads me to my next question, is when did you start and when did you move in? So, what was that duration?
Martin (04:22):
So, we bought the house in June ‘22. We lived there for about 10 months while we were … we wanted to live there to feel the space. We knew that we were going to do the kitchens and bathrooms, and also living there gave us an idea for how we wanted to use the space better, which Marilyn, I know you and I talked about that. We met when we had just started the project-
Marilyn Moedinger (04:45):
Yeah. Because I feel like I met you in 2022. You had just started the project.
Martin (04:53):
This is a two-drink story, but I'll try to keep it short. So, we bought the house, moved in. The design phase, it took a while. I mean, we started in August of ‘22, meeting with our architect and going through schematics and all the different versions and scope, and all the rest of the stuff.
And then we went through contractor selection, and then chose a contractor, and then we waited. The city of New Orleans, I'm sure like many other municipalities (I don’t know, maybe New Orleans is the worst), we had to wait a really, really long time for our building permit, which is frustrating.
But nevertheless, we waited and waited and waited, and we finally got the demo permit so that we could start demolition, and that was in May of ‘23. Yeah, May of ’23, and then we fired our contractor on June 1st 2023, and so that was a whole thing.
Marilyn Moedinger (05:52):
Bookmark that. We want to hear more about that later.
Martin (05:55):
And then we had to find a new contractor, and we finally found a contractor that we loved. And look, the previous contractor, good guy, not the right fit, moved on. It's all fine. It's why they call it show business, not show friends. (Laughter)
And then we found a new contractor, restarted the project in September of ’23, and then moved in in December, right before Christmas. So, our kids got to experience Christmas in the new house this past year.
That said, they were still waiting for panels on the appliances in the kitchen, and I mean, we're still, in fact, while we're here on this call, there're still punch list things that have to be done.
[Laughter]
Our contractor’s showing up with a few other exterior things, but yeah, so that's the run. Bought the house in ‘22, started demo in May of ‘23, really started construction in September of ’23, and then moved in in December of ‘24.
Marilyn Moedinger (06:52):
And you mentioned that you worked with an architect. In what capacity? Did they do full services? Were they helping you pick out all the interior stuff? Was it just drawings? How did you work with an architect?
Martin (07:03):
Again, if I use the wrong terms or phrases for this, help me out. No, no our architect's great. So, we met her or this group through just other friends that in the neighborhood had gone through recent projects, and we liked the design of their house.
There were some tasteful elements, the attention to detail, ended up getting to know her, and she, incredibly thorough, which is in line because my wife and I are both very detail oriented. And so, we wanted an architect that would just match our pace and attention to detail on the project.
And so, we retained them as a contract administrator, and so they were in on … I mean, from everything like schematic phase, contractor selection — material selection, I mean, they were with a lot of the construction specific material selection. They were helpful but we also had an interior designer help with.
Marilyn Moedinger (08:03):
Okay, that's what I was going to ask. I thought you did have a separate interior designer.
Martin (08:06):
We had an interior designer help, not with furniture, but just with paint color, hardware, poles, cabinets, all the rest of the stuff. Which all’s well that ends well, I suppose. When you're going through it, you're just like, “Oh, my God, I'm hemorrhaging cash.”
Taylor Davis (08:22):
I mean, I think it's when it ends (laughs).
Martin (08:26):
I don't know. My project still isn't done, so we'll see.
Marilyn Moedinger (08:29):
(Laughs) You're still punch listing.
Martin (08:30):
So, we had an interior designer that had most of the finishing decisions, but all of the design decisions were with the architect. But it was a good team. Those three; the architect, the contractor, and the interior designer had worked together on a project before.
And so, it was helpful because they kind of spoke the same language or had some recent — or I think they worked on the same … if they didn't work on the same project before, fooled me because they worked well together.
Even things like in the … I have three little girls and there's a Jack and Jill bathroom between two of the rooms. And we had these custom cabinets for the vanities and they're little girls. And so, one of the ideas that the designer came up with was like, “Hey, how about we just do some pullouts instead of having stools, it's like a little drawer thing that pulls out so they can step on it and brush their teeth.” And that was kind of an afterthought. It wasn't in the original plans but making on the side decisions around things like that.
Or even like (I hope my kids don't hear this) — another one is in my wife's closet, there is a secret closet behind the closet which is where we hide the Christmas gifts. The reason we did that is because our middle child, when she was three, wandered up to the third floor and found all of the Christmas gifts two days before Christmas, and so we were like, “Okay, well we need to …”
Marilyn Moedinger (09:58):
Christmas closet (laughs).
Martin (09:59):
Yeah, not for human safety, but for hiding presents from our kids. And that was another one of those on the site design decisions that we did. Yeah, so that was a team. Long-winded answer to your question.
Marilyn Moedinger (10:10):
So, you had this team, and then you sort of alluded to maybe that picking all that stuff out, I don't know, you were going through it … what was it like picking all that stuff out and going through the design process and great team, but how did the design process work for you?
Martin (10:29):
You'd probably get different answers from me and my wife if you were to ask us separately.
Marilyn Moedinger (10:34):
Well, she's not here, so we're going to have to rely on you.
Martin (10:37):
So, you get one version of the story. My preference is to make decisions quickly and move fast, and so is hers. And I felt like the design process for all of the finishing elements … I'll talk about the architectural design and the schematics set next.
I was more frustrated with the interior design process because so much of it is the designer learning what your tastes are. And so, there's so many different versions of different rooms and there were a lot of rooms.
And so, there was just a lot of material to go through, and I just got frustrated with how it was just a labor-intensive process, of more meetings and looking at more stuff. And in hindsight, I recognized that that's just the process. I was just frustrated with a normal process for interior design.
With the architecture design, the original structure was 1905, which, by the way, we found the original contract because we did, like, historic research. We had this researcher go and find the original Sanborn maps and all the rest of the stuff. Find newspaper clippings and figured out all the people that owned the house. That was a cool and interesting project in itself.
One of the things we learned is that the house originally had a porch on it, but the house we bought did not have a porch on it. And the other thing we learned is that the original structure, they had added on a wing to the left in the 60s, and then in the late 70s, they added a whole back to it, and then extended the second story.
And so, going through the history of the house, you walk into it, and there's parts of the house that looked original, and there (were) parts of the house that definitely looked like 1979. And so, we were like, okay, we want this to feel … it's an uptown New Orleans house. It's not open floor plan, big spacious rooms. Every room kind of has a purpose, some rooms are a little bit smaller, and that's part of what we like. That's why we bought the house in the neighborhood that we bought it in.
But one thing that was interesting about the back of the house is that (and this was definitely an add-on in the 80s or whatever) there was a spiral staircase. The kitchen was closed off and there was a spiral staircase that went all the way to the third floor.
And the third floor was just like 150 square feet. It was a sewing room kind of thing, and then the attic was huge, but it was just an attic. And we said, well, we definitely want the spiral staircase to go, because I think my kids are going to kill themselves if they're up and down the spiral staircase.
Marilyn Moedinger (13:00):
That's a hazard (chuckles).
Martin (13:01):
Yeah, yeah. And so, that was I think what changed this project from a kitchen renovation and bathroom renovation to something much bigger. Because it was like, well, if we remove the spiral staircase, then we have to change access to the third floor, and then if we're going to do that, we might as well fill the third floor out because we don't want to be doing construction later.
And then if we had to do that in order to move the stairs, we have to move the master and then this bedroom should go over there, and all kinds of other things cascaded from that decision to remove the spiral staircase. So, I can't fault the architect for any of the final decisions we made. I think she did the best that she could with the structure that we have.
We wanted to stay within the four exterior walls, and I think she did a great job of maximizing the amount of living space versus the amount of space that's storage versus the amount of space that's needed for the rough in and everything else. There's not a spare square foot in this house. We have maximized every bit of it that we could reasonably.
And so, the design process, it starts off, what's your ideas? What's your budget? Which I made the mistake of like, “Well, I don't know what our budget is. Let's just see what the options are,” which that was my fault. That was definitely a mistake.
Marilyn Moedinger (14:24):
So, what would you tell people to do instead of doing that?
Martin (14:26):
Just have a budget. Even if it's low or high or whatever, at least then the architect can come back and be like, “You're crazy, that scope is not going to fit in this budget. Here's what you can do.” And now, I feel like you can make decisions based on that.
Marilyn Moedinger (14:42):
Can we underline that 25 times-
[Laughter]
Taylor Davis (14:43):
Star, bold, all of the things you just said.
Martin (14:47):
The mistake that I made is that I didn't know what I wanted and I also didn't know what … the scope that we eventually did could have been the price that I wanted it to be or it could have been five times as much, and I literally wouldn't have a frame of reference because this isn't what I do.
I don't cost residential projects all day long. Anybody goes into a project with a number in mind, then you can at least make decisions faster. And I feel like we wasted a lot of time, and I caused myself a lot of heartache and sleepless nights because you get into a project, and then you have to finish it, you can't just put walls up and not finish the project.
Sheri Scott (15:29):
Can we go back to the time you said with the spiral staircase, and then it all cascaded into this huge project. What did that look like with you and your wife? And you kind of covered what the architect helped with, but was it hard for you to make that decision to keep going? And was it a slow, like, “Let's do this room, then the next room,” or were you just finally like, “Screw it, we're going to move out and we're going to do everything?”
Martin (16:01):
It was like, what's the saying? It's a little bit at a time, and then all at once? It was like we got the schematic back and we're like, “Okay, we don't like this room,” it's all 2D and you're trying to imagine what the feel of the space is going to be.
And my first reaction is like, man, we're moving a lot of walls, and when I see walls moving, I think that's dollars that have to be spent to move all of those walls. And if you take the dollars out of it, there's a justification for every single move that's being made. I'm not trying to evade the question, Sheri, I'm just thinking about there was no aha moment that I was like, “Ah, okay, you know what, screw it. Let's just do the whole thing.” I think it was-
Sheri Scott (16:42):
Yeah, that's exactly what I wondered.
Martin (16:44):
We got down to three different floor plans, like schematics that we were trying to decide between, and we picked the one that we thought was the best. And then we went and we got bids from four different contractors, and it came back, and it was more than what we thought. And then we went back to the schematic and it was like, okay, well, how do we cut? What do we change about the scope?
And every time we tried to cut a piece of the scope, it was like, well, no, we imagine ourself in the space and we want that. And so, I think that was what happened, was when the numbers became real which by the way, we didn't even hit those numbers, it went way over that. But that's episode number two.
But once we looked at the scope and tried to cut things back and looked at the budget, I just said, “Look, if we're going to do this, this is the forever home, just do it and get it done with it. And I'll cry about it and then I'll get over it, and then we'll just move on with our lives.”
Taylor Davis (17:53):
So, I have a question, because knowing New Orleans and knowing houses in New Orleans, there are lots of challenges to older houses in New Orleans. There's a lot of water.
Martin (18:03):
They're built on a swamp, number one.
Taylor Davis (18:04):
They're built on a swamp; there’s no great ground.
Martin (18:07):
There's termites, almost always, right?
Taylor Davis (18:11):
Yeah. I mean, you could go through and name any sort of pestilence or plague, chances are it's gone through New Orleans.
Martin (18:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Taylor Davis (18:19):
Generally, with a pirate or two, kind of-
Marilyn Moedinger (18:22):
For good measure.
Taylor Davis (18:24):
So, given the context of that, in the design process, did you find … like it's one thing to renovate a ranch that was built in 1965 or 1970 or 1980 even, but working in a house in New Orleans that was built in the 19th century or early 20th century is a whole different shooting match.
Did that impact the way you and your architect approached the design process? Were you consistently thinking about, “Lord, we can't move this giant cypress beam because if we do the whole house is going to …” was there a sort of overlay of that, going through that process?
Martin (19:01):
For sure. So, I'll give you an example. The only thing that feels modern about our house is how we had to redo the kitchen and the family room. The den, it's the whole back of the house. That is one big open space, but in order to do that, we had to make this cased opening that was previously a wall that was a supporting wall.
And you also had the spiral staircase that was supporting. So, when we took that out, there was this (chuckles) … it was an H-beam that was like the width of the house (I don't know, 60 feet long, 50 feet long) that we had to jack up six inches to make sure that the ceiling was level.
Taylor Davis (19:44):
Fun for us, not for you.
[Laughter).
Martin (19:46):
(Sarcastically) Yeah. It's really cheap to do that too, by the way.
Taylor Davis (19:49):
Real inexpensive move.
Martin (19:52):
So, they ended up taking this H-beam, pushing it back up, which was … there's a process for shoring that and making it go up. But then they did what are they called? Flitch beams or whatever into the sides so that-
Marilyn Moedinger (20:03):
Yes. Very good.
Martin (20:03):
See, I got some language — and that was because we wanted the only visual misalignment because the kitchen, it's weird, it's kind of like offset from the fireplace if you look at the lines, and we wanted the ceiling, we wanted it to be flat. We didn't want this weird thing jutting out from the top. So, that was one of the elements.
A couple of other things that we considered; in the front, for example, we put this porch back on, you have to put in concrete footings. And in order to put concrete footings for the weight that we were putting down, we had to go down like six and a half feet to board the huge, huge footings, which will tie into another learning that I'll share in a second. Don't let me forget. I'll talk about landscape architecture because that became really important. But yeah, that was a consideration.
The third thing, and probably the most important thing for a city like New Orleans that rains every day for like five months out of the year, it's pretty wet, it's really humid: moisture. Trying to make sure the house does not trap moisture.
And that's my number one concern going in other than aesthetics, was I don't want to walk into an HVAC design and an airflow design that six months from now, we have a mold problem. Because when you have a mold problem, it's a problem, problem with a capital P.
And so, we hired the mold consultant who comes in and checks the humidity and talks about the crawl space underneath, and then the attic. And we ended up doing spray foam underneath and spray foam in the attic, which is pretty common in the south.
But one of the challenges with spray foam is that it does trap whatever's in there. It kind of creates this vacuum and so we ended up doing the humidifiers — I'm sorry, dehumidifiers.
Marilyn Moedinger (21:56):
Dehumidifiers (laughs).
Martin (21:57):
Yeah, yeah. You don't need humidifiers. And then a dehumidifier underneath, I think.
Taylor Davis (22:03):
Probably, and then there's termite issues on top of, you have to sort of figure out termites with spray foam too.
Martin (22:12):
And that's pretty straightforward. It's like paying your mortgage, you know you're just going to have a termite contract and it's part of having a house down here, because look, it's a wood house. Even if you have all cypress, it's still going to get termites.
And we did the boric here, we sprayed all of the studs before we closed in the walls, and we have the liquid treatment and all the rest of the stuff. But that's not that interesting to this.
Taylor Davis (22:39):
Well, it is. It actually, it's important.
Marilyn Moedinger (22:43):
Yeah, absolutely. And you're bringing up a point here about how having a local team who understands not just things like the local jurisdiction or the codes or whatever, but how to actually execute a project in that climate, that's really important.
I mean, most of my projects are in New England. I have a whole other set of issues (laughs), than if I were in New Orleans. And it's cold, there's snow, there's all kinds of other things we got to deal with. And we still got the same tools; spray foam, wood, whatever — we still got the same kind of tools, but we're using them differently.
And I think to your point of like, okay, well that's not necessarily part of the architecture, it isn't. But having an architect who understands how to detail things like that, absolutely crucial. Because if you've got mold or termites, it doesn't matter what other awesome stuff you're doing. So, I think it's important that sort of local knowledge team as well.
Martin (23:39):
Totally. Well, in addition to local knowledge about the climate and what it's like to build, I have so many … now that we're past the project, I loved my architect the whole time. But things get contentious on the project as they go.
Marilyn Moedinger (23:55):
There's tension.
Martin (23:56):
But I could list a thousand reasons why, and I hope she listens to this. I'm definitely going to send her the interview and she's going to be so happy we're talking about it.
But they were also helpful with the city and knowing the right people to call to help the permits move forward, or making sure that the plan set was presented in the right way because of knowing for example — one of the cool things about this house is there's a carriage house, like an original carriage house that presumably actually had horses.
That's where I am right now. This is my office, office. It's on a slab that at some point, they had re-put a slab underneath this thing. And we put a pool in the backyard, and to get the permit, there was the differential between where the slab is and the waterline and all the rest of the stuff.
Like just having that knowledge from running into problems on other projects and her being able to adjust the permit set so that we could get through the permit office, like that kind of stuff. That's why you pay, that's what you have an architect for.
In addition to that, it's impossible for me to overstate the attention to detail because for example, like the window schedule, I cannot tell you how many times we went … the door schedule and the window schedule because all our windows and doors are custom, like they were milled for this house.
And there's a lot of doors and windows. And so, going back through and having an architect that had gone and meticulously laid out window size, window shape, where the window is located on this part of the plan — I don't know how common this is, I don't know if that's just what architects do. Maybe that is, but it seemed like this was comprehensive. The construction documents that we got were as thorough as you could possibly get them.
Marilyn Moedinger (25:42):
Amen.
[Laughter]
Martin (25:44):
I'm preaching to the choir here.
Taylor Davis (25:45):
You are. Amen.
Marilyn Moedinger (25:45):
And we promised we didn't ask him to say these things, ladies and gentlemen.
Taylor Davis (25:49):
No, amen.
Marilyn Moedinger (25:50):
I want to make sure we get to our big question because that's where a lot of the juicy stuff is. And you've already hinted to some of this already, but sort of knowing what you'd know now about the whole thing, what would you do differently? We've already heard you would keep the architect, so that's great (laughs).
Martin (26:08):
Get an architect, go in with a clear budget, hire the designer. I mean, look, all this stuff is total budget dependent, don't spend outside of your means, do what you can afford, all the rest of the financial advice.
But objectively, if you're going to do a full home gut for an old house to the level of detail that we were expecting, I don't think that we could have achieved that outcome had we done it ourselves or had we tried to cut corners. The only place that I think we cut corners or I cut corners- and definitely regret the decision- was not hiring a landscape architect at the beginning of the project.
Marilyn Moedinger (26:47):
Tell us more.
Martin (26:49):
And so, here's why. The architect in the schematic had drawn a rough plan for the exterior, and it wasn't to the inch, but it was to the foot. And I'm sitting here, like, it's landscape architecture, like what-
Marilyn Moedinger (27:02):
How hard can it be?
[Laughter]
Martin (27:06):
And so, I said, “We'll just put on that and I'll find a landscaper who has an architect in-house and they'll help.” Well, what I didn't anticipate was all of the subsurface work that we had to do with natural gas, plumbing, irrigation, and then the stuff to support putting a pool in and all the stuff for the pool, and how to organize-
Taylor Davis (27:26):
And drainage.
Martin (27:29):
The mechanical … and drainage, which is important in New Orleans. And we had a bus stop, we had a circle driveway that we took out, we redid the fence. I mean, we went all the way down to the mud everywhere that wasn't covered by the house.
As an example, in the front of our house, there are these planters and they're these concrete planters, and our architect, admittedly, she has a bit more of a modern taste and a modern design. She does old houses like ours, but she likes to incorporate some modern elements.
They look great now, it's fine. But I don't know that if I could do it again, I would have the planters look this way; they're just a little too modern. Again, I hope she listens to this because this is one of the things that we've argued about.
And look, it isn’t her fault. Whenever they went to put the footings in for the porch, I was like, “Well, just go ahead and pour the planter, it doesn't matter.” And then when they poured it, I was like, oh, I didn't even … the driveway on the right is just barely big enough to fit a car. There was a lot of things that had we had a full landscape plan prior to pouring concrete, we probably would've had a different design that was more functional than what it is.
Now, I don't think anybody that goes to our house would ever even realize. They would look at it and they'd be like, it looks … and even now, I'm like it's fine, it works. But I do think that there are some design elements that we would've changed that in our architect's defense, she said, “You should get a landscape architect, that's not what we do.” And I was like, “No, we don't need that,” and so here we are.
Sheri Scott (29:11):
Just for the coordination alone for them like you said, all of the underground utilities, it's not just bushes and pretty planters. It is, can you fit a car in? And if you don't have somebody coordinating that, it's tough, and you make mistakes, and then that leads to all of the stress.
Martin (29:33):
Exactly. Or even little things like running the whatever it is, 220 volt or whatever, to the gate operator arm, and we just forgot and didn't run conduit underneath the driveway, and poured the driveway.
And I remember sitting there and I was banging my head against the cement being like, “How did I miss this?” But it wasn't on the plan because we did all that stuff after the fact. So, we ended up just using the little concrete joint, taking the wood out, pouring it in there, and then pouring a little sealing over it.
But one of the alternatives was like, what's the little … it's like a metal V that goes on top of wire, you've seen it. Like when you drive in and out of a driveway, what do they call that? Angle iron. You just put angle iron over it, and I'm like, “No, I don't want angle iron covering the driveway.” It's funny how you develop these opinions about things that I'd never even thought about before, but I’m like-
Marilyn Moedinger (30:29):
But it's a strongly held opinion now (laughs).
Martin (30:31):
No doubt, right. So anyway, those are the kinds of things that are just downstream from having a good plan to start with.
Marilyn Moedinger (30:37):
Well, I want to make sure we touch on something you said very early on that I did not forget, which is that you changed contractors.
Martin (30:44):
Yes.
Marilyn Moedinger (30:44):
So, what's the story? What happened? Whatever you can share.
Martin (30:50):
We had a simple ask which is I wanted a contract, and a control estimate, and a timeline to completion.
Marilyn Moedinger (31:01):
These are all completely normal and proper things to ask for, ladies and gentlemen.
Sheri Scott (31:05):
Yes, reasonable.
Martin (31:07):
And we could not come to terms on those three things. And so, I said, “Listen, I don't think that this is compatible.”
Sheri Scott (31:13):
But he had already started.
Martin (31:14):
Yeah, they started demo.
Sheri Scott (31:17):
Did you sign a demolition contract? What did you have in place for them to come in and start tearing down?
Martin (31:22):
Just a handshake and a good optimistic disposition.
Sheri Scott (31:25):
Wow.
Taylor Davis (31:26):
Welcome to the South.
[Laughter]
Martin (31:33):
Here's the other thing, is that not to be like, “Well in my neighborhood,” but it is kind like these contractors — I'm not trying to malign this guy's character. He builds beautiful houses; we've seen a lot of his houses. I'm sure he has great clients that love working with him. Just, like I said, incompatible.
But he's doing a project around the corner right now. Like I see him in the neighborhood. All these contractors’ reputation matters a lot because all of their business drives off of referrals because they all do houses in the same neighborhood because they specialize in doing old houses.
We looked at some contractors who were local but didn't do work in our neighborhood. And so, when you look at their resume, if there were one, which is really just give me some examples of other houses you've done. If I didn't see that they'd done houses that were built prior to 1920, then I'm skeptical immediately, and it's not to say that they couldn't do it, but like-
Marilyn Moedinger (32:24):
You don't want them learning on your job.
Martin (32:27):
For sure. There's already going to be a lot of learning on my job because that's every single project. I don't want-
Sheri Scott (32:32):
Yes, everyone.
Martin (32:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Sheri Scott (32:33):
Always unknowns. Yes.
Marilyn Moedinger (32:36):
Something you said there, I want to make sure that we underline, which is it's fine if that GC works for someone else; if the way he works doesn't work for you, that's what matters.
Sheri Scott (32:47):
And there's somebody for everybody. That contractor is going to be great for the guy that's like, “Oh, my gosh, don't give me a contract that ties me down, I just want you to come in and start.” There are those people out there too, so it's just finding the right fit. Unfortunately, you started the project before you figured out, and then ended up what, three or four months later.
Martin (33:12):
It was a mutual agreement; we decided to part ways. I didn't actually fire him; it was an adult conversation. But it was at the last responsible moment where it was like this was okay. The other thing I'll say is, just like you were saying Sheri, he's going to do a bunch of projects, he's going to find people he likes to work with.
And a lot of contractors, at least in our neighborhood, there's contractors that are doing people's second homes or third homes, or people who just. “Send me the payout.” There's no budget or no real budget. They just want to just go build whatever they want. That ain’t me. I don't have unlimited money-
Marilyn Moedinger (33:55):
And it’s not most people (laughs).
Martin (33:56):
Right, yeah. And you want your house done well, but you got to be responsible fiscally on the project. And so, I think at least I'd say for the people who listen to this podcast, if you are in a neighborhood that has luxury homes or is doing those size projects, just have your eyes wide open for contractors because it's pretty common in those neighborhoods to have contractors that don't usually work toward a specific line-item budget.
Sheri Scott (34:28):
Did your architect introduce you to contractors or help you through the bidding process?
Martin (34:33):
Yeah, they did. I mean, ultimately, they deferred to us because it was our decision. But when we had to go find a new contractor, they were super helpful, and they ended up helping us find the contractor who ultimately finished the job.
The other thing I'll say that our architect, they have a great team within their office. There's the project, like the partner, that's who my primary contact was. But she had two architects, I don't know, like associate architects or what's the term in the industry-
Marilyn Moedinger (35:07):
That works.
Martin (35:08):
Yeah, sure. But we became best friends with these two women who were like, we saw them once a week, every week for a year and a half, or every other week or whatever. And they just know, they come to understand your project so well and it's like it's pretty intimate. Not in a weird way, but just because you’re-
Marilyn Moedinger (35:29):
Well, they're designing your house. No, I mean, this is what I say to my clients all the time. I'm like, “Sorry, but I have to know a lot of details.” Like we're talking bathrooms, we're talking kitchens, these are intimate spaces, family spaces, like we're going to talk about all that stuff. So, yeah, of course.
Martin (35:46):
Do you want rock wool between the primary bedroom and the kids' bedroom?
Marilyn Moedinger (35:50):
I just do it. I don't even ask.
Taylor Davis (35:51):
Always.
Martin (35:51):
You said always.
[Laughter]
Marilyn Moedinger (35:52):
I just do, I don't even ask. I have a few stories on that front, but maybe that's not for the podcast, for client requests (laughs).
Martin (36:04):
It is fun. What was cool about … it's like you start the project, you have in your mind's eye what you think it's going to look like, and then it becomes a little more real when you have this schematic, and then it gets even more real when you have the permit set.
And then the contract set is like, okay, now I really see this thing coming together. And then you get to stand in the house and you change your mind about things. And I know that architects and contractors love this. And I don't mean changing my mind on scope or whatever, but maybe it's not even me, maybe it's driven by the contractor who's looking at a corner and he's like, “Ah, it's not going to work this way.”
Like we had as an example on the second floor, which is where we maneuvered most of the rooms around. We wanted to pull natural light into the hallway, so we had to punch a skylight through this kind of like … there's like the main, was it a gable roof? Is that the one that's like this (gestures)?
Marilyn Moedinger (36:55):
Yep.
Martin (36:56):
Yeah. So, this and then it's like the extension on the side that kind of runs off. And so, we had a punch of skylight through, but it was two different pitches. And it was like there's no way for the architect to have known how to design that until you actually got into it.
So, I remember that being, we're all standing there, we're looking up and it's all two by fours and you're trying to imagine how — and I got to credit these because they're professionals. And they're like, “No, no, no, it's going to go like this and we're going to pitch the walls this way and it's painted.” “What's the color again for the designer?” “Okay, great.” And like here's how … they're thinking about things that … it's like listening to Tiger Woods describe a golf shot or something.
[Laughter]
He's thinking about the do on the ball based on the time of day. I don't even consider those details; I’m just like I want the skylight to come into the hallway so that we have natural light. And so, that's what I mean by you change your mind because as an example, okay, here we have to do this elaborate construction to make sure that the skylight works.
That's like two days’ worth of a master craftsman and two of his helpers. Do you want those built-ins in the backhouse? Those are the kinds of things that kind … there was a lot of that happening where we were definitely doing some horse trading between different things because it was like prioritize the things that are structural that can't be changed quickly or easily. You can always do built-ins.
Marilyn Moedinger (38:22):
That's right.
Martin (38:24):
That's the kind of stuff that was helpful to have an architect and a contractor who were on the same page that were supportive in making the tradeoffs.
Marilyn Moedinger (38:33):
Well, and in a renovation, that's how it goes. Because you uncover things, it's not a new build where you can plan everything out in advance. So, in a renovation, I think it does take professionals who are used to that process.
And as you're describing a client or a homeowner who's ready to kind of be able to go with the flow a little bit, and kind of weather those surprises and be standing there and listening to the conversation, that's also important too from a mindset standpoint for owners.
Martin (39:03):
I mean, talk about mindset, this is the most stressful thing I've been through in my life. I still wake up in a cold sweat — no, I'm just kidding. So, here's-
Marilyn Moedinger (39:15):
Well, and Martin, you've built companies. You have kids, you have real-
Martin (39:19):
So, that was what I was going to say.
Marilyn Moedinger (39:20):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Martin (39:21):
My day job or professional life, I've run big teams, I've run big P&Ls, I'm no stranger to big, hairy projects and managing projects or managing teams and managing people. I was completely humbled by this project. Like completely humbled because it's like trying to keep sand in your hands. Like there's no way to keep the sand in your hands.
This is why I wish Kelsey was here because she'd tell you the real story. But I mean, I was a basket case the whole time because one day, I'd be like, “It's going to be amazing, imagine what our life is going to be,” and then the next day I'd be like, “Oh, my God, we're going to go broke. It's the worst idea ever. Let's sell the house immediately.” And then it was just like that every single other day for almost two years.
And what causes that, I think it's you want to have control, or I want to have control. I don't want to speak for others, but I want to have control. And even when you think you know the plan and the budget and the timeline, it never goes that way. And the lack of control was probably just like a perfect little bed for tons of anxiety and frustration and stress.
Taylor Davis (40:35):
I want to transition us from the anxiety. Can we do that?
Martin (40:40):
Yeah. We can talk about the good stuff too. The house is pretty dope.
Marilyn Moedinger (40:43):
That's what we're going to do right now.
Taylor Davis (40:45):
Yes. Projects cause anxiety and nothing is ever perfect. And you have described very well, very poetically, some of the challenges that have come up in this project. But when you walk into your house, what's something that you love every time you see?
Martin (41:03):
I'm going to talk about something that I smell as opposed to what I see. What we did was we … because house smell is important. I don't know, like we joke and talk about house smell a lot, and I wanted to be intentional about the house smell.
The irony here is that when we bought the house, the people that had it before us, they, I guess, had a moth problem and they had a bag of mothballs that fell into the carpet and melted into the carpet, and so the whole house smelled like mothballs when we bought it.
[Laughter]
And I was like over my dead body, we're going to have a house that smells … like I want people to know and love it. So, we did the thing where, it's like a diffuser thing that you can plug into the HVAC system that lets out a puff every five minutes or whatever. And there's like a thousand scents you could pick from and you could pick the Ritz-Carlton in Bora Bora or the-
Taylor Davis (41:50):
That's nice.
Martin (41:51):
Southern azaleas or whatever. I don't even know what the smell is that we picked, but it smells amazing. Every time you walk into the house, it smells like the lobby of a luxury hotel.
Taylor Davis (42:05):
Well, and the power of association too, like that now you have the smell that you associate with your fabulous house, that's a really kind of powerful emotional connection too. I think sometimes we do underestimate the power of smell and the power of taste, and sort of the other senses that we as architects focus on the visual, there's lots of other stuff that goes into it that I think is really important.
Martin (42:30):
Exactly. I'll mention two more things that are visual, not smell or sensory. So, right when you walk in, there's the, what is it, a foyer? Is that the right name for that? Okay, so the foyer.
Taylor Davis (42:43):
“FO-YAY”, if you're in-
Martin (42:44):
“FO-YAY,” excuse me.
Taylor Davis (42:44):
New Orleans, it's FO-YAY.
Marilyn Moedinger (42:48):
Or hallway if you're in New England.
Martin (42:50):
Yeah. There's a painting on the wall and it's by a locally famous artist, Michalopoulos, who has a distinctive style. And it's a painting of our house that was done in the 90s, whenever. And I think the previous owners had gotten it commissioned.
Well, anyway, when we put an offer in to buy the house, we wrote in the offer that we wanted the painting too, and they ended up requiring us to write a separate contract for this painting, and then it was like a condition of us getting our bid accepted.
And it was this whole thing, and now it's this inside joke that's like, okay, we had to buy this painting that we were … anyway, and now, it's the focal point when you walk in. So, it's this nice story of buying a house is stressful, is another stressful thing, and that's this little memento from that. That's one thing.
The other thing that I'll mention about the design … I mean, look, there's so many great things about this house. My three little girls have beautiful little bedrooms, they're designed well. They have their space, they feel comfortable. They have their playroom upstairs, but they're still young so we all hang out together downstairs, spend a lot of time there.
And the impetus for the entire project was the kitchen because we like to cook and host and spend time in the kitchen. And that was the one place where I was like, spare no expense, every detail that we want, we're just going to get what we want.
So, we did the appliances that we wanted, we did the range that's like … you know the range. I don't even need to name the brand. You know the range, I know Marilyn does-
Marilyn Moedinger (44:24):
I do.
Martin (44:25):
Because I think you've seen the picture. But we did the whole thing with, you know, it's got the arabesque and the kitchen is green, and it's got the … what's the drawers that-
Marilyn Moedinger (44:38):
In-set cabinets.
Martin (44:38):
And it's got a ton of natural light, and then we also did the huge Marvin sliding... That's one cool thing is that when the weather is nice, for the two months out of the year in New Orleans that it's nice, we can open up the sliding doors, the kitchen, the living room, and the backyard. That's kind of like a courtyard with a pool, all of that feels like one living space. Long-winded answer, Taylor, but that's what it's for.
Like the other day, we had friends over, friends and family, and they were all sitting … it was kind of nice weather out of season, nice weather in New Orleans. We had cooked or grilled and everybody was hanging out in the outside dining table, eating, laughing, having a glass of wine or whatever.
And my wife took a picture because she was washing dishes and she said like, “This is why we did it.” When you have this moment with the families together and everybody's enjoying the space, it is nice. Look, I just gave myself chills talking about it.
[Laughter]
Marilyn Moedinger (45:34):
That is a perfect place to end (laughs).
Sheri Scott (45:36):
Yes, that’s great. That's really good. And you should send that picture to your architect. She would love to see that.
Martin (45:43):
Oh, she knows all, she's got it. And that's the thing about New Orleans; it's such a small city. We've had a few folks come in like tour our house as an example because they're considering hiring that architect.
And I'd encourage, for anybody considering doing a renovation, it's not for the faint of heart, but it's worth it if it's where you want to live. I think I shared that with you Marilyn, it's the Katherine Graham. She has, it's either a biography or an autobiography, but there's a story where she buys a house and she's bellyaching over the cost of the house.
And this mentor figure of hers says, “Look, when it's where you want to live, don't bargain.” And the whole point is if this is your kids are going to grow up, this is the place for you forever, make it right.
Marilyn Moedinger (46:33):
Make it right. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Martin. We really appreciate all of your insights and stories.
Martin (46:40):
So, wait, when I jump off, you all are going to gossip around all of the things that I talked about?
Sheri Scott (46:43):
Can't wait.
Martin (46:44):
Excellent. Can't wait to listen to it. Thank you for having me on.
[Laughter]
Have a great afternoon, evening, and we'll see you later.
Sheri Scott (46:52):
Thank you. Bye-bye.
Marilyn Moedinger (46:53):
Thank you. So, Martin said we're going to gossip about him, so I guess we better get on that.
[Laughter]
Sheri Scott (46:58):
There's a lot to talk about.
Marilyn Moedinger (46:59):
There’s a lot to talk about.
Sheri Scott (47:01):
I thought one of the things he hit on several times without saying, it was his strong team. There were so many different examples he gave, and the one big team member that he was missing was a big deal to him; the landscape architect.
Marilyn Moedinger (47:18):
Well, and also to have the courage and sort of foresight to change a major team member in the general contractor right before, I think he said “at the last possible responsible moment” (laughs) which I thought was a great way to describe that. And just say, “Hey, this isn't going to work. It doesn't matter if it worked for other people.” If it's not going to work for him and his family and the way that they want to do things, then let's make the decision here and it's going to be painful.
I'm sure it was painful, I'm sure there was some sleepless nights, and I'm sure that was a little bit rocky there for a couple weeks, but it sounds like in the end, it's worth it.
Taylor Davis (47:55):
The thing that resonated with me, and we've talked about it kind of peripherally, but I don't think there's ever been an example that's this strong, is how local climate, local conditions can really dictate the house and the design and the construction, not just the team.
Because yes, that's important and that's sort of a general rule, I think is that if there are special conditions associated with permitting or knowing the right people and officials, that's kind of one thing. But having people who are steeped in the neighborhood and the climate and the way that the land works in that particular neck of the woods.
And like he said, the things that come up; moisture and termites are a big thing here. We talk about termites in every single project, and there's changing rules about termites. So, the local conditions and having a team that understood those and was able to incorporate them into a tricky, 125-year-old building, this probably was not something that had been touched a ton other than added onto sort of by bits and pieces.
Marilyn Moedinger (49:07):
Specializing in a locality, I mean, when I walk into a house in the greater Boston area, I can read it instantly. Because it's the same kind of details, it's the same kind of framing quirks that I don't see when I'm working in the Lancaster area or when I consult nationwide, so I see all kinds of stuff.
But in terms of the really heavy-duty renovation projects that we do, I can walk into those houses … I don't even have to walk in. Someone just says, this is the kind of house it is and I can tell you what the framing plan is. I can't do that in New Orleans (laughs), and that New Orleans person can't do that here.
So, having that local knowledge of the actual architecture, the vernacular, the way the framers put those things together, that is so priceless, and you would spend so much money dealing with someone from out of town who didn't necessarily know that information.
Taylor Davis (50:00):
Or, and I want to add this really quickly — the rabbit hole that I think a lot of folks can get into is they can go online and they can read information about how their walls should be constructed, or how their house should be insulated, or what the HVAC should be.
But all of that is based on the locality of the person that is writing that article, and it varies widely across our country. We have different climate zones in the residential code for a reason, because they're very different conditions and seasons, and the way we build houses is very different for those things.
So, as a DIYer who comes in and says, “Okay, I want to build this wall that I've seen …” and I'm not trying to put Green Building Advisor under there, but that's a great resource for that stuff. That climate zone could be climate zone six. It's not necessarily correct for New Orleans.
So, really sort of dialing in and understanding that that team is going to be the best group of people to provide you with that information, it may not be that it's the stuff that got read online, kind of like Googling your medical conditions, architect Google may not be the same as the architect in real life.
Sheri Scott (51:17):
And not only moisture and green building, things like that, but actual techniques. I know here in Ohio, just northern Ohio, the contractors use different techniques than we do here in Cincinnati. So, not that they couldn't learn it.
I mean, there are definitely some details that we draw that people haven't done before, and we can teach them how to do it if they don't have a better way to do it. But knowing those things and knowing how contractors work will help your budget, your bottom-line budget for the homeowner too, because then contractors aren't scared, and they don't pad everything to overcome those issues that they see.
Marilyn Moedinger (52:00):
You're reducing friction too. You're removing any sort of like the smoother things can go, the less expensive or the less you're going to pay for mistakes or time or whatever. And also, Sheri, you said something I want to underline like 20 times.
When the contractor looks at the drawing set, they're going to say, “This was drawn by someone who knows how we build around here,” and that makes a huge difference. The contractor's like, alright, other than that, if they see something that isn't the way they normally build, they're going to pad!
They're going to say, “Oh, well, these guys don’t know what they're doing. This is going to be a big pain in my butt, so I'm adding 20% and hiding it all the way through this budget.” And that you would never see, and you would never know.
Sheri Scott (52:47):
Right, right.
Marilyn Moedinger (52:48):
They're protecting themselves because it is going to cost that much extra. They're not wrong.
Sheri Scott (52:54):
And that's actually not to say that you can't get maybe a design architect from out of town, but you need to work with somebody that is open to then getting an architect of record or a local architect to partner with to take it to fruition.
Marilyn Moedinger (53:13):
One of the other things that Martin brought up that I think is along those lines, is the design process. So, having someone not just to execute the drawings locally or whatever, but he talked about how it was pretty exhausting, the design process was pretty exhausting.
And he even said that it's not like they did anything wrong, it was just he found it to be like, “Oh, my gosh, I don't want to talk about cabinet pulls anymore.” And the three of us have all been in those conversations where we're just like, “Please, owner, I need you to make these decisions.” And people underestimate how many decisions that they have to make and we're there, we're like, “I know you don't want to talk about this, but you have to make a decision, or I'm going to pick it.”
Taylor Davis (54:05):
And that's a valid option. And I think that that's one of the things that you can ask your architect if you're talking about a project, is like, how much of the decisions do you make? How much of the decisions do I have to make, and what's the timeframe for that?
So, if you are a person who knows you struggle with picking out which ice cream flavor you want when you go to the ice cream place, you may want to say, “Okay, architect design team, present me with three options and I'll pick from those three.”
Sheri Scott (54:32):
Yes, that's right.
Taylor Davis (54:33):
“Don't send me to the store on my own.” So, I think that there are ways to sort of get at that, but there's a little bit of know thyself first when you enter into this process and being able to kind of say, “Hey, this is something we don't know anything about.”
If you're very opinionated and you know what you want at the get go, that's fine. I think the other thing that is along those lines is the interior designer was a separate team member, which is great, and we do those projects all the time.
It is also possible to choose an architect like we do interior design as part of our process for some stuff so we can do soup to nuts all the way to curtains and rugs. And so, if that's something that you don't want to involve another team member with, if you're going through that selection process, that may be a question that you ask in terms of what services do you provide.
Marilyn Moedinger (55:25):
Absolutely. I also want to underline something that he said a couple times, but deserves repeating. Tell your architect your budget (laughs). Or even then, no more important than that, it wasn't that he was withholding the information.
Sheri Scott (55:40):
He didn't even know.
Marilyn Moedinger (55:41):
He didn't have a budget.
Sheri Scott (55:43):
He didn't even have one. Like draw it and we'll see, that makes me so nervous. And at one point, I have asked my client, “Okay, I'll draw what I think you're telling me, but at what number would you fire me?” Because I'm like, “You tell me all these things you want, I come back to you and it's a $6 million house and you were expecting $2 million, I need to know some kind of limit.”
Taylor Davis (56:11):
And there's no judgment.
Marilyn Moedinger (56:13):
There's not.
Taylor Davis (56:14):
None of us are judging your-
Marilyn Moedinger (56:15):
No, I don’t care.
Taylor Davis (56:17):
… investment. And I call it an investment because somehow, I feel like that releases some of that budget. That wording budget can be fraught. But I think that people are hesitant to tell us because either they think we're going to judge them or they think we're going to use it all, but we can't operate in a vacuum, an information vacuum, it doesn't exist.
Marilyn Moedinger (56:38):
What I say when they're like, “Well, I don't want to tell you, you're going to use it all.” I'm like, “Then don't tell me the number you don't want to spend.
[Laughter]
I don't know. You don't want to tell me a hundred grand because you don't want to spend a hundred grand, but you secretly want to spend $75,000 tell me $75,000. Of course, I'm going to spend what you told me you wanted to spend; don't tell me a number you're not comfortable spending.
Sheri Scott (57:00):
Another thing I thought he explained very well, which was interesting, and we have this in our projects all the time, is that the project is not a straight line. Not a straight path to decide what you're doing, especially in renovation projects.
But even in new builds, people will come in and start with one project, and then it's always when they kind of go dark, we know we've presented something to them and then they don't get right back to us, and we check in on them, and they're like, “Well, we've been thinking,” and it kind of changes direction. And that's totally fine. Our contracts cover that and we'll figure all of that out, but you should stop it as soon as you feel like something doesn't feel right here.
Marilyn Moedinger (57:48):
Yep. And sometimes in a renovation, I think what worries people is that they don't have control over that moment. So, if you open up a wall and you discover termites or you discover some issue you got to deal with, then suddenly, you don't actually have control over that anymore, of saying, “Well, hey, we want to change the scope of the project.” It's like, “No, you're redoing your third floor now because we're taking out this crazy staircase and we got to deal with it.”
I know that that produces anxiety, which is totally understandable. And it's why, by the way (helpful hint) when we talk to owners about doing renovations, which is what we do (we do the craziest renovations that are very intense and all kinds of crazy stuff's happening) — we tell them you need to set aside 30% of your budget in a secret “oh crap” fund, and that-
Sheri Scott (58:36):
Or also known as a contingency.
[Laughter]
Marilyn Moedinger (58:40):
Contingency, yes. And by the way, no spending it along the way to get the fancier tile. But in renovation, I just want to say this to reassure everyone; once you're past demo, which is very early in the project, it's at that point that you know what all the issues are for the most part because that's when you've got everything opened up and you can see the surprises.
After that, there might be some surprises, like, “Oh no, the tile that we wanted to order is now discontinued, so we have to find a new one,” fine, we can deal with that. But as far as the like, “Oh my gosh, there's a $50,000 scary thing that we just uncovered,” that happens very, very early in the project.
So, that's what I always tell people, we can readjust as we go. It's completely fine. We've been through it a million times. There are always surprises, but you're working with a team who can handle it. But that's why the oh crap/contingency [laughter] — by the way, the builder should not hold or take. The owner needs to hold that (laughs).
Taylor Davis (59:43):
Yes. And that's different from a retainage, which you may see in contractors’ contracts too, which is a whole other thing. So, that's something we should talk about at another point in time.
Sheri Scott (59:53):
Well, I think there was a lot of information in this, and he was so open and I feel honest, he gave us a lot of great things that I think will help a lot.
Taylor Davis (01:00:03):
Thanks for joining us on Home: The Second Story. If you'd like to come on the show and share your story, please email us at admin@htsspodcast.com. We would love to have you as a guest. For more inspiring homeowner stories and tips, we will see you next time.
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